The rioting in France - which started a couple of days ago after two youngsters died after they hit a police car on their moped - continues. Gateway Pundit reports that 77 police officers were injured last night in clashes with the ‘youths’ (from North African heritage of course).
What’s more, some of the injured police officers were… shot. At least some of the street terrorists are using shotguns.
A senior police union official - Patrice Ribeiro - said that “[t]he violence was more intense than during three weeks of rioting in 2005.” The rioters aren’t just rioters anymore, they’re “genuine urban guerillas with conventional weapons and hunting weapons” according to this Ribeiro.
The merry bunch continued to throw molotov cocktails at everything that moved - or had the capacity to move such as cars. Dozens of cars were set to fire.
In case you’re wondering whether the two youths who died had done something wrong: yes. They didn’t wear helmets and they stole the moped.
This is becoming absolutely ludicrous. The last time they rioted it was awful, this time it’s even worse. They’re becoming ordinary guerrillas, the police officer said. Think about that for a while. The police, quite simply, is fighting a war on the streets of Paris.
Sarkozy should send the army in. Once the street terrorists start shooting, it’s war. As I said a couple of weeks ago when Dutch immigrant youths were rioting: if they want war, give it to them. Jules Crittenden seems to share my view, with the difference that he’s already going after Sarkozy. In case you forgot: Sarkozy is actually the one who ordered the police to fight back last time and who put an end to the rioting.
There’s no question in my mind that Sarkozy won’t give in to the rioters. He’s not the kind of ‘we’ve got to treat them with gloves on’-leader.
Meanwhile, Shamaniac believes that conservatives such as myself are overdoing it: after all, some innocent rioting here and there isn’t that big of a deal.
And some wonder why it is that Europeans don’t trust labor when it comes to law and order.
It is indeed war and the fighters can, in many respects, be considered street terrorists. Spain, with all it’s faults, prosecutes certain forms of rioting under terrorism laws. The Kale Borroka (Basque for Street Fighting, aproximately) is street violence for ETA “puppies”, violent youth that are being groomed for the terrorist group. They torch cars, businesses, ATMs and clash with police. Leaders of Kale Borroka are considered low level terrorists, and I think it’s a very appropriate consideration other countries should consider adopting.
If this were the US the National Guard would have been called in, curfew would have been declared, and shooting police would result in being shot, as it should be. All this accomplishes is teaching those thugs that they can get away with just about ANYTHING without punishment. C’mon Sarko! You called these people scum the last time, earning you the respect of Europeans far beyond your own borders. Show them they can’t torch your country and get away with it!
“Once the street terrorists start shooting, it’s war. As I said a couple of weeks ago when Dutch immigrant youths were rioting: if they want war, give it to them.”
Oh but you can’t say that Michael! It’s not “Politically Correct”, they’re just kids, they’re oppressed, (insert idiotic liberal apologist phrase here).
Sorry, couldn’t resist. If there’s only place I find my usual liberal self disagreeing with The Left it’s in this situation. Like you said: if they want war give it to them.
One wonders why the French haven’t called in the military yet; it’s not like they’re heavily involved in overseas deployments or something. Or are Europeans less likely to use the military in emergencies than the US is?
Tom:
- yes
- especially the French are
War - No way.
Riots - Si mucho.
Now if you want to see real rioting, lookup 1965 1967 1968 US riots.
From Wiki:
# 1965 - Watts Riot, Aug. 1965, (Los Angeles, California, USA)
# 1966 - Hong Kong 1966 riots (aka Kowloon riots), April 1966, Hong Kong
# 1966 - Fire Hydrant Riots, July 1966, Chicago, Illinois
# 1966 - Hough Riots, July 1966, Cleveland, OH
# 1966 - Hunter’s Point Riot, (San Francisco, California, USA)
# 1966 - Compton’s Cafeteria Riot, August 1966, (San Francisco, California, USA)
# 1967 - Bhagalpur riots of 1967, (Bhagalpur, India)
# 1967 - Tampa Riots of 1967, June 1967
(Tampa, Florida, USA)
# 1967 - 1967 Newark riots, July 1967, (Newark, New Jersey, USA)
# 1967 - 1967 Plainfield riots, July 1967,(Plainfield, New Jersey, USA)
# 1967 - Cambridge, MD Riot 1967, July 1967,(Cambridge, Maryland, USA)
# 1967 - 12th Street Riot, July 1967, (Detroit, Michigan, USA)
# 1967 - Hong Kong 1967 riots, (Hong Kong )
# 1968 - Orangeburg, SC riot, (Orangeburg, South Carolina), USA)
# 1968 - 1968 Washington, DC riots, April 1968, (Washington, D.C., USA)
# 1968 - Baltimore Riot 1968, (April 1968, Baltimore, MD, USA)
# 1968 - Chicago riot of April 1968, (Chicago, Illinois, USA)
# 1968 - Kansas City riot of April 1968, (Kansas City, MO, USA)
# 1968 - May 1968 popular uprising (France)
# 1968 - Louisville riots of 1968, May 1968 (Louisville, Kentucky, USA)
# 1968 - Glenville Shootout, Cleveland, OH
# 1968 - Martin Luther King jr. riots
# 1968 - 1968 Democratic National Convention riot, Aug. 1968, (Chicago, Illinois, USA)
The streets of the US ran red and burned, and we didn’t need no stinkin Patriot Act or NASA diapers. France not so much, did anybody kill John, Robert, Malcom, Martin or Ringo?
Sarkozy has a chance to contain these shithumans and move hard on them and them alone - thus preventing their influence, sending a message and most importantly prevent them becoming representative for innocent youths of the same ethnic groups.
He has every right in the world to throw down everything short of NBC weaponry in my opinion - the time for understanding and programs is post hoc.
Thank your, rudi6666, couldn’t agree more.
As much as I usually appreciate the comparatively measured stances MvG takes on most issues, it is a good rule of thumb that agreeing with Jules Crittenden on ANYTHING should be a big, red warning sign.
I am not saying that these riots are to be taken lightly but please, people, get a grip on yourselves - calling this a freaking WAR is such hyperbole, so beyond the pale… words fail me.
I have no problem with sending in a couple hundred special forces police teams in riot gear to deal with this criminal mob.
But to me as a European the very idea of deploying the army INSIDE the country is totally out of the qustion - maybe I have different sensibilities there than most Americans. This is just NOT DONE except on the imminent danger of your country descending into anarch or foreign troops having infiltrated the territory.
And even though I know what kind of reactions this will evoke, let me say this: anyone who believes that we are even remotely near any of these two developments manifesting themselves is a paranoid and deluded fool who has read too much Steyn, Podhoretz etc…
Marc, the US National Guard is a rather odd hybrid. It is officially part of the national military reserve, and some units have been deployed in iraq during the past few years.
However its primary use (even recently) is cleaning up after natural disasters. Followed by helping the police keep order, but after major disasters and during civil unrest such as large-scale rioting. So calling out the National Guard isn’t really the same as sending in the regular Army.
Just for openers, for everything except actual military deployments, it is the state governor, not the President, who sends them in. In fact, the only time the federal government gets involved with the National Guard in a domestic situation is when the governor is seen to be using them in defiance of the federal courts. See some cases in the middle of the last century, when civil rights issues were beings sorted out.
But generally, if the National Guard is involved, Americans would think of hurricanes or major wild fires or maybe earthquakes. Riots would have had to grow far beyond what the local police could handle, which hasn’t happened in a long time.
For a President to actually deploy regular Army troops domestically, the situation would have to be far, far graver than anything France has seen. And we would have to have a President who was even more willing to ignore the Constitution than the current administration has been.
In the late 60’s govenors and President basically declared martial law in many cities, even without a Jihad threat.
In Detroit we had a REAL riot in 1967, here is the body count:
From: http://www.67riots.rutgers.edu/d_index.htm
In Detroit in 1967 LBJ and Romney basically declared defacto martial law. From: http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/johnson/archives.hom/oralhistory.hom/Vance-C/DetroitReport.asp
When Paris or even the “Jihadi threat” reach these proportion please call…
The violence in Detroit wasn’t unique, just the worst of a troubled time. Tell me how todays treats/riots compare.
Rudi: you’re strange. He wants the states to solve it, police or military. Federal government steps in when the state can’t subdue it.
france doesn’t have different states rudi.
And ’serious rioting’, are you kidding me? They’re shooting with shotguns Rudi.
Seriously, people like you are never, and I mean never, allowed to come back into a position of power. We’ve had that for too many years already in Europe.
And where oh where is Michael Moore now.
Michael - If your truly a student of American Studies I suggest a detailed look into the Detroit riots and white radicals like John Sinclair. You didn’t address anything about the TWO riots in Detroit where Federal and State troops were called out to stop REAL riots. BTW - John Sinclair is now in your country, maybe in Amsterdam at a coffee shop. When Europe erupts into the riots/rebellion of US race riots call back.
Is Marc who responded to my comment the “front pager”? I think , if he is, this is the first time we agree.
MvdG - The riots in Detroit also has a link to the 1968 Hippie riots in Chicago at the Demonocrats Convention. The MC5 and John Sinclair were the house band, and this group called for “revolution. So when the small fires in Paris reach the turmoil of the US, race riots and anti-War/Vietnam rebellion, then you have something to worry about. Look up SDS, Weatherman, Black Panters and White Panters.
I grew up outside of Detroit in 1967, we had a curfew, baseball was canceled and couldn’t by alcohol or gasoline in the lily WHITE suburbs. Now 1967 Detroit was a REEAAL riot.
Perhaps you should tell taht to the cops who were shot Rudi. Would you like to do that? I suggest you going there at 3AM, while the fighting is going on, cops have to hide behind cars and houses so they can’t be hit, etc. you explain to them that what they’re witnessing is nothing.
It’s getting increasingly worse and having people like you comment on it as if it’s no big deal is more than infuriating.
Let me add that although European states often have provinces, the closest thing to states, but these usually work nothing like US states. Generally speaking, provinces have much less autonomy than a state, and less leeway for making their own laws. They have some, to be sure, but for instance murdering someone gives you a penalty dictated by national laws, you can’t get 10 years in one place and life in a different place based on different laws.
What provinces most certainly do NOT have in most countries is their own armed forces in the way the National Guard exists in the US. A European country where things get out of hand will send police first, special forces police next, and the armed forces last (though I don’t know this has ever happened). At this point, special police forces with license to use deadly force seems to be what is in order. Usually special police forces are as well armed as any ground troop. In Spain they even have mini-tanks.
rudi6666,
to clarify: no, I am not the “front pager”, whoever that is supposed to be. I have never commented here before.
From the Rutgers site:
http://www.67riots.rutgers.edu/d_events.htm
The archives at the Detroit News(conservative) and Detroit FreePress(liberal) also are excellent sources of the Detroit riots. And in the 1960’s dozens of US cities had riots(REAL).
Another fav was Watts…
Yeah that’s quite like what happened in France isn’t it?
Seriously, lets just say that we tried your approach in Europe, it doesn’t work.
Lets fight back.
Micheal — if you are framing this rioting as guerrilla warfare, please, please, please please, think about the use of massive force as you seem to be advocating:
“They’re becoming ordinary guerrillas, the police officer said. Think about that for a while. The police, quite simply, is fighting a war on the streets of Paris.
Sarkozy should send the army in. Once the street terrorists start shooting, it’s war. As I said a couple of weeks ago when Dutch immigrant youths were rioting: if they want war, give it to them.”
as whether or not it has been productive or unproductive in stopping or massively decreasing ‘guerrilla’ activity in the past forty or fifty years. Remember classic Maoist guerrilla theory, foco theory, and 4th Gen. Warfare all predict that disproportionate and poorly targeted use or display of force delegitimatizes the state and increases the populations’ support for the guerrillas.
Just remember your framework and the consequences
Fester: that’s a good point. But it seems to me that they’re less well armed than normal guerillas, and they’ll have a hard time getting more weapons and bullets, etc., once taken from them. What’s more :we’re dealing with a couple of hundred people. In other words: this is a situation that can be put under control by sending soldiers in to deal with it.
Heck, in fact I think that if the army is sent in, these ‘youths’ will run back home.
Deploying the army is a little crazy. Armies are trained for totally different rules of engagement. To put it simply, they are trained to be much more trigger happy. Putting them in the midst of a bunch of civilians is the last thing you should ever want to do.
And so what if these ***holes have guns? Street gangs in every city in America have guns, but we aren’t dropping the 101st in there to root them out.
@20 Chris
Why not? It’s time to clean out the cesspool….
What you are ignoring Michael is that President Johnson deployed US Army troops into the streets of Detroit to assist National Guard and police. US troops were firing on US citizens during a riot/rebellion in a US city Detroit.
From Global Security about the 82 Airbourne:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/82abn-3bde.htm
From Detroit to Vietnam to fight in the Tet Offensive!!
Responding to Micheal in #19 — you are admitting that sending in the Army versus sending in more riot cops is a massive escalation in force
“But it seems to me that they’re less well armed than normal guerillas, and they’ll have a hard time getting more weapons and bullets, etc., once taken from them. What’s more :we’re dealing with a couple of hundred people. In other words: this is a situation that can be put under control by sending soldiers in to deal with it.
As Chris in #20 points out, armies have very different mindsets and rules of engagement than riot cops or cops in general, and that this mindset combined with the public perception of massively disproportionate force will at best only temporarily suppress opposition to the state… and what will happen is some of the smarter youth will figure out that if they are to oppose the state there are way more effective ways of being actual guerrillas than throwing molatov cocktails and blasting away at armored police with hunting shotguns — systems sabotage anyone…..