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Westerners on the Armenian Strategy and Rebellion

An interesting debate ensued in the comments thread of my latest post on what some call the Armenian Genocide. One of the commenters (Paul), an Armenian-American, asked me why it is that I believe that Armenians rebelled well before 1915, killing Turks, in an attempt to get the Great Power (of Europe) to intervene in their behalf. The reason is simple: Western witnesses. In a comment I quoted the following individuals:

The Armenian Patriarch told the British Ambassador Elliot on December 6, 1876 that

If it is required to start revolution or to rise up in order to secure the interventionof Europe in this matter or to draw its attention that can be done quite easily.

The British Ambassador Currie at Istanbul expressed the following view in his report he sent to the Foreign Office on March 28, 1894:

The Armenian revolutionaries stir up disorders with the aim of forcing the Ottomans to retaliate and thus pave the way for the intervention of foreign countries.

The British Consul Grave at Erzurum in a message sent to the British Embassy at Istanbul on January 28, 1895, reports that:

The purpose of Armenian revolutionaries is to compel the Turkish government and Turkish nation to take action against themselves because of the general discontent they create themselves and so draw the attention of foreign powers to the imaginary sufferings of the Armenian people and convince them of the necessity to improve the situation.

When New York Herald correspondent Sydney Whitman asked British Consul Graves whether clashes between Armenians and Turks would have occured if the Armenians wouldn’t have rebelled, the latter answered: “of course not, I do not think that a single Armenian would have been killed.”

General Mayewski who served as Russia’s Consul General at Bitlis and at Van, reports as follows in a report of 1912:

Armenian revolutionaries created such a suspicion between Armenians and the local people in 1895 and 1896 that it became impossible to carry out any reforms in this area. Armenian clergymen were not busy with religious education at all. They endeavoured instead to disseminate nationalistic ideas. Such ideas were developed within the walls of the mysterious monasteries and enmity of Christians towards Muslims replaced religious duties. The reason of the rebellions taking place in many provinces of Anatolia in the years 1895 and 1896 was neither the poverty of Armenian villagers nor the supposed oppression on them. For these villagers were richer and more prosperous than their neighbours. Three causes may be mentioned for the Armenians uprisings:
1) their increasing consciousness in political matters; 2) the spreading of the ideas of nationalism, liberations and independence in the Armenian public opinion and 3) support provided by Western governments to such ideas and the effort of clergymen to disseminate them.

The British Vice-consul at Van, Mr. Williams, points out in his report dated March 4, 1896 that:

Tashnaks and Hinchaks incited people in an excessive and wild manner and paralysed all the effort and activities undertaken to implement the reforms and that Armenian revolutionaries were responsible for whatever happened in Anatolia.

The British Consul General at Adana, Mr. Doughty Wily, says in his report dated 1909 that:

Armenians have been striving to secure the intervention of foreign powers.

General Mayewski states in another Report of his dated 1912 that

The Tashnak militants have been trying to pave the way for Russian intervention by inciting troubles between Armenians and Muslims

The Armenian historian Papazian wrote:

The purpose of all the incidents and uprisings was to induce the European states to intervene in the domestic affairs of the Ottoman state.

And there is more. Much more.

Whenever Armenians refer to the period of the mid 1890s it’s wise to keep the above quotes in mind. Armenians rebelled against the Ottoman government in the 19th century already and, according to Western sources, exaggerate the response of the Turkish Muslims in an attempt to get more Armenians to rebel and to get the Western powers to intervene on their behalf.

That’s, of course, information that’s not often shared with foreigners. Turks know it, Armenians should know it if they’re as informed as they say they are, but Westerners often don’t know it.

We often forget that the Ottoman Empire wasn’t just weak at that point in time, but that the European powers were incredibly strong (the US as well by the way). Since the mid 19th century Russia, France and Great Britain were talking amongst themselves how they could divide and conquer (parts of) the Ottoman Empire.

European countries were still highly imperialistic. They conquered and colonized large parts of the Ottoman Empire (Arab lands anyone?). They wanted to divide the Ottoman Empire between themselves. For this to happen, however, they needed the support of Christians living under Ottoman (read: Muslim) rule. These Christians needed to rebel. This would cause the Ottoman Empire to become even weaker and it would create goodwill in the West for a massive military offensive.

The above aren’t opinions. They’re facts. The Armenian lobby - I’ve already explained in the past who I mean by that - would like you never to see these facts, but they’re there and can be read / understood for all those who are interested.

Armenian nationalists are still carrying on the battle of their ancestors. The difference is that they don’t use force (well, save for in the late 21st century when Armenian terrorists killed / tried to kill those who disagreed with them), they use diplomacy and political pressure (and threats, lawsuits and other kinds of pressure of course). The goal remains the same: to create a Greater-Armenia. This Greater-Armenia consists out of large parts of what’s Turkey today.

To quite some of them, the ‘recognition’ of a ‘genocide’ isn’t the goal. It’s a means.

Next time lawmakers want to pretend they’re historians, they’d better keep that in mind and look at (all) the facts; not just the stories given to them by the Armenian pressure groups.

There are many polite, civil and honest Armenians out there, who truly believe that what happened to their great (great) grandparents constitutes genocide. These individuals, however, would be wise to take a look at the facts, and to distance themselves a bit from it all - so that they can be more objective.

When one says that what happened isn’t ‘genocide’ one is by no means saying that what happened was minuscule. It wasn’t. In the civil war, and during the relocations, many innocent Armenians sadly died. Turkish gangs (even some soldiers and officers acting on their own / ignoring the wishes of their own government) and Kurdish gangs attacked Armenian deportees, and made many innocent people suffer tremendously.

That’s also a fact.

But that doesn’t mean that what happened was genocide, nor does it mean that the numbers and sequel of events aren’t exaggerated and twisted by some Armenian pressure groups. They are. And a genocide it was not. The Ottoman government ordered its soldiers to take care of the Armenian deportees to the best of their abilities and warned them that those who attacked the Armenians would be punished.

Which many of them indeed were.

A government that wants to exterminate a people wouldn’t do that.

Anyway,

What’s also important in this debate is that people talk about the Turkish casualties and Turkish suffering caused by Armenian nationalists. These individuals - who actually were the leaders of the Armenians at that time - went out and attacked Muslim villages, burned them down and killed many innocent Muslims. They did so because they hoped that the Turks would react, which would then give them great propaganda material (which the Western powers could also use as an excuse to help them).

Yes. Those are facts as well.

There are two sides to this story and lawmakers - no matter in what country - should not talk about matters they know nothing of. The sad reality is that the lawmakers who support genocide resolutions don’t know what they’re talking about. They didn’t do research. The only thing that’s important to them is whether or not voting in favor of such a resolution will help them politically.

Voting for distorting the truth, however, should never be the popular thing to do.

Lastly, here is an entire report from First Lieutenant Abgral, Commander of the Russian Forces at Erzurum. The report was written and sent in 1918 - yes, after the deportations - but that doesn’t make what happen any less horrific.  Warning: It’s a long, and a terrible read.

Massacre of Muslims by Armenians

Russian Official Document No. 31

Erzurum, March 3, 1918

To the Commander of the Caucasian Army

On February 26, 1918, at mid-day, a company of militia began to assemble the Turks in order to make them clean up the railways and the roads leading to the fortification. This order came from General Atranik. But it was carried out by the chief of the militia of the town, named M. Farachian.

The Turks complained and said that they were being gathered together without taking into consideration the prescribed formalities according to which a written order should be issued by the Commandant of the town… I at once communicated with M. Farachian who told me that the above-mentioned formalities necessitating to get a written order of the Commander had been abolished in view of the circumstances… Thus three sections of workers were formed. One section was sent to the gate of Kars; second, towards teh gate of Oltu; the third toward the gate of Trebizond. At about 3 PM I was informed by one of my soldiers that the Turks of Kars, referred to above, were taken behind the fortification of Azizie. I realized the true significance of that information given by soldiers, only on February 27. While leaving Erzurum, I saw on the road of Kars more than 70 dead bodies (Turkish) riddled with bullets on the head, the nekc and the ches as well as wounds from bayonets in the region of the heart and the abdomen. With the second section of the Turks the Armenians dealt in the following manner:

The Turkswere tightly squeezed into the barracks, made of wood, where they were so crowded up that they could hardly sit down. On that night, according to the testimonies of the workers on the railway line, the Armenians began shooting the Turks one by one and after some time they began firing on the barracks.

The third section, according to my informants, was shot by macihe-guns at the gate of Trebizond. Now I shall try to draw a picture of February 26, the day of nightmare and blood. The Armenians broke into the houses of Turks by using force and seized the males of age 11 and aove, including the elderly ones, and formed them in colmns and led them with blows of whips and rifles, outside the town, where they massacred them in the most savage manner. Once I asked them where they were taking the Turks and if it was to make them work? ‘No’ replied the soldiers with an air of satisfaction ‘we shall probably kill them.’

When I told them: ‘Have you gone crazy? come back to reason,’ they replied to me: ‘For the love of God, do not prevent us. We do not touch you at all and what we do with them is not your business.’ There was a great excitement in the town; every one was running about. Cries of children and lamentations of Turkish women were heard everywhere in the town. The Armenian soldiers were walking about in groups in the town and were continually forcing open the doors of Turkish houses. Finally, came the terrible night that shook the spirit of desolation. The blood congeals at the thought of the horror of this night. The cries increased. One should like to go to the rescue of the unfortunate victims, but when one goes there, one receives everywhere the impertinent answer ‘do not interfere’ which is accompanied by threats. I heard the cries of women. I opened the door and climbing up the stairs I entered a room. Here I saw seven Armenian soldiers fully armed, one of them holding a candle in his hand, some searching for what they could find and some were massacring in a savage manner. There were three unveiled Turkish women, down whose faces blood was trickling. Their blouses were torn showing their breasts covered with blood. On their sides, children were there so terrified that they appeared dead with fear. A child cried out in an extraordinary voice opening the yes full of tears. One of the Armenians prevented it from crying, but the terrified child understood nothing and kept on crying. Then the Armenian delivered a blow on the head of the child with his rifle and the child stopped crying and fell on the floor. When the mother saw the child in this condition she began to sob. Then he slaughtered the child with his bayonet and landed a blow on the head of the mother and bayoneted her. The other women seeing this began to cry hands on the eyes. The children folded their arms, with bended heads they awaited their turn, but at once a dagger was aimed at my abdomen. I thought it would be better to leave the room. I came out of the house, I heard a carriage coming, I at once recognized that it was that of the commander of the militia, M. Farachian. I begged him to enter the house; he roughly answered me thus: ‘when Armenia boils one cannot think about individuals’ and asked me at once why I did not enter myself to stop these fools. I replied that I was a Russian and that they would not listen to me. M. Farachian then told me ‘I am surprised that at such a moment you should find enough time to busy yourself with such silly things.’ I left him and walked for a long time in the streets. I also visited the Turkish quarters. Everywhere the same horrible picture that breaks one’s heart was to be seen, the same cries, the same moaning of women and children. The victims of these crimes have been so numerous that it would not be wrong if I say that only 250 Turks, who could hide themselves, have been left alive in the whole town. The Armenians, having also realized that possibility, began to reclaim them from the Russian officers. They also called at my house where they searched for them everywhere,  even in the cupboards and under beds. But they forgot to search the garret where I had hidden a Turkish family.

The following sence, which took place in the hosue of the former military cashier is characteristic. I happened to be there by chance. I found a few Armenians there. They were seated before a lamp and were picking out some articles in gold, rings, bracelets and other articles that they had robbed. One of them told me that he could not take a bracelet of the wrist of a woman as she would not open. He had to cut the hand and the fingers of the woman (he himself said this) to take the bracelet, etc. off. The Armenians set the town on fire. They also burned non-military buildings and the house of the American Consul, M. Stempleten. Now and then we heard rifle reports; they completely massacred the remainder before the arrival of the Turkish Army. All the roads leading from the gate of Kars to Hasankale were covered with massacred Turkish bodies, despoiled of their dresses, and the noses and ears of a great number of them had been cut off. We came close to Hasankale and saw a group of Turkish prisoners along the railroad who were led by an Armenian soldier, who made them run. Those who happened to be behind were being whipped and hit on the heads. Their faces were covered with blood. Finally, we arrived at Hasankale. Among these prisoners was a blind old man, accompanied by a boy. The blind old man groping his way and the boy had no more strength left to help the old man. A soldier on horseback began to beat them. These poor persons were wiping the blood off their faces without uttering a word. They kept quiet thus hoping to be spared the martyrdom. But fate had it differently, as soon as they reached Hasankale, the crowd that awaited them massacred them at once by fusillade. We proceeded on to Keupry-Keuy. On arriving there I alighted from the train. I suddenly heard cries from the direction of Hasankale and saw a crowd of Turks running. I counted them afterwards and them to be 40.

In front of them there were two soldiers on horseback, who, from their uniform, seemed officers. But I could not see their ranks, since they were quite far away. The horsemen who were in front made their horses trot and gallop and teh Turks had to imitate them. Those who were unable to do so were beaten. Sometimes the horsemen would stop suddenly then the human momentum caused by inertia brought the prisoners almost up to the horsemen, the horsemen landed blows of rifle on their heads, made them pass through a group of carts; at a given time they had to come down a slope; a Turk fell down and this did not please one of the horsemen who went up to him and drew his sword and delivered a blow cutting open his forehead and lips. The wounded Turk attempted to rise but the horseman shot him dead. At this time the Armenians began shooting the prisoners and within five minutes there lay 40 warm dead bodies of the Turks on the side of our wagon. A few Armenians not content with this went and examined the bodies and fired a few more shots at those who showed any sign of life. All along the railroad we saw the same thing. For example at Horasan the Armenians opened fire on the Turks working on the railway lines. Happily only two were killed there; Russian mechanics bandaged the wounds of the wounded and carried them to the barracks. When we arrived at Karaurgan we learned that all the wounded had died.

First Lieutenant ABGRAL

Military Commander of the town of Erzurum

Erzurum, March 3, 1918.

201 Responses to “Westerners on the Armenian Strategy and Rebellion”

  1. on November 20, 2007 at 5:39 pm Areen

    Edit by MvdG: it never surprises me that some Armenians find it funny to read what their ancestors did to Muslim Turks.


  2. on November 20, 2007 at 5:42 pm Paul

    I already addressed the problems with Mayewski. It’s just amazing how every time I look up one of these quotes it’s either sources only by the TallArmenianTale site or the official Turkish government site on 1915.
    Michael I am in no way suggesting they are all made up (though as I explained Mayewski’s work has gone through about 3 or 4 translations, the second having been into Ottoman Turkish by a Turk, until it reached the official Turkish government published one you quote today. An analysis of the original and the terminus of the translations showed many additions/omissions, so it is hardly creditible in the 2001 form you are using.
    My problem is that you are perpetuating a double standard. Any quote an Armenian would release (ironically enough some from the same people you quote as supporting the “Turkish thesis”) certainly in your mind is not creditible. And heaven help if it was actually released by an organization like the Zoryan Institute who studies 1915. However, without in most cases validation on your own (because the way you introduce most of the people who supplied the quotes, besides the quotes themselves, come directly from these Turkish websites- if you found each and every one of these themselves why was the material not part of the actual quote also directly lifted from those pages?) you accept these quotes at face value.
    Meanwhile some of these ‘backgrounds’ are complete fabrications- for example the daming one by “Armenian historian Papazian wrote…”
    Do you know who he is? Dennis Papazian of course is the well-known Armenian historian, but that’s not who this is about. This Papazian was an Armenian POLITICIAN, not historian (I thought you said politicians can’t speak on historical issues) and yet you (aka the Turkish websites you lifted the quote from) call him a historian. You probably couldn’t even tell me his first name, his motives for writing his work (it comes from a virulent and nasty political dispute involving the murder of a Soviet-sympathetic bishop over the Armenian church in America). Without any sort of context, accurate portrayal of who is making the quote, or why, you can take his and all these other quotes and use them to mean whatever you want about anything.

    For example the Armenian patriarchate quote- it is only found on a couple Turkish websites. I did find in a book a description of the patriarch’s plea- it was in connection with Abdul-Hamid just coming to the throne and the situation for Armenians taking a significant downturn. According to the book, the patriarch was requesting assistance in pressuring the OE for reform, since obviously they had no other outlet being subjected to an autocrat.

    If you want to use all these quotes which are only found in the propaganda material of one side (yes BOTH sides have propaganda and I’m not out of line calling TallArmenianTale a site with a propagandistic motive. On top of that, I know at least one person who is a Turkophile and knows a thing or two about 1915- he doesn’t think it was genocide but does think TAT is one of the most insulting and vile sites he’s even encountered.) I think it is vital that everything be properly sourced. Are you going to accept the alleged Hitler quote as being 100% true? Of course you don’t, and you point out that it’s Armenians who have taken it and used it for their purposes. And yet you see these alleged quotes, which are only sourced by Turkish propaganda materials and of which you have never seen actual copies of.. I know you speak of having some ‘book’ with some of this information- but sorry a compilation of quotes published in a book by the Turkish government or lobby group is NO different than a compilation of quotes on-line, they are still subject to potential tampering or being misleadingly out-of-context as they are on-line. Unless you can tell me you have the actual third party books in which these quotes were ORIGINALLY published by these third party people you so herald.

    So far you have not done a convincing job proving that you have actually seen any of these original quotes in their original forms- and in fact a simple Google search makes it quite obvious that they are taken right Turkish propagandist webpages. Right now you are operating on the notion that these quotes you got from Turkish sources are all totally accurate and perfect as is- that they are not out of context, that they are not fabrications, that they are not putting words into others’ mouths (as I believe is being done withe the patriarch’s allegedly transcribed discussion, advocating treason way back in 1876 which obviously could have gotten him executed- when another source says he was just requesting reform, perhaps that being the ‘revolution’ he was referring to if that word was ever used). I am not trying to be insulting Michael, but I am MERELY holding you and the Turkish side to the same standard you hold Armenians. Is that not fair?


  3. on November 20, 2007 at 5:49 pm Michael van der Galiën

    The alleged Hitler quote is 100% nonsense and stop discrediting my sources. Again, I took the time to copy it, handwritten, typing and all that.

    I am beginning to realize that you simply don’t want to hear the other side.

    BTW: I know about what happened to the Armenians. I know that they have equally horrible stories to tell that’s my point Paul: they both suffered tremendously, yet all we do is talk about how the Armenians suffered and pretend that they did nothing wrong.

    This was a civil war.

    You guys often compare it to the holocaust. That’s not a right comparison for a long list of reasons. A better comparison? What’s happening in Iraq with Shiites and Sunnis having a go at each other.

    Paul: if you study the situation with the Ottoman Empire, it quickly becomes clear that the revolutionary movement was, indeed, going on for a long while. I already knew this to a degree thanks to my high school education (in which they spent time to the question of the Orient and how the great powers conspired against the Ottoman Empire).

    You do see my point by now, don’t you?

    If it was up to me, there would be a resolution something like this: “we regret the suffering on both sides. We acknowledge that many Armenians were killed by Turkish and Kurdish gangs. These individuals were brutally murdered. We also acknowledge, however, that Armenian militias killed many innocent Turks. We recognize what happened as one of the blackest chapters in the history of mankind. We call on both sides to reach out to each other, to open up the archives for historical research and express our hope that both sides will be able to forgive each other.”


  4. on November 20, 2007 at 6:07 pm Paul

    “Again, I took the time to copy it, handwritten, typing and all that.”

    From what?? Because if you’d simply google the quote description (note: not the actual quote but the descriptions of who and what they said) you’d notice they all appear in that exact form on a couple of Turkish websites and that’s all.
    It appears your painstaking handwritten transcription was a waste of time if they are already posted as is in the same exact form on TallArmenianTale. Which makes me question this continuously unnamed book you use which has all these quotes- as I said if it is published by a group like the ATAA or the Turkish government then what makes their quotes any more creditible or subject to manipulations as quotes published by the Armenian side?

    “stop discrediting my sources.”

    I’m just holding you to the same standards you hold all Armenian quotes. Until I see the original for ANY quote and in its proper context I will not “take their word for it”, whether they are Armenian or Turkish. I don’t know why you don’t do the same but I think I am being more than fair in calling you out on this.

    My point to you is that you continue to operate with a conclusion and throw out these quotes which come directly from a Turkish propaganda source and which I have demonstrated in at least some examples are inaccurate or purposely misleading (you never answered my questions on the “historian” Papazian or the controversy surrounding quotes from your oft-quoted Mayewski, for example). I do agree 1915 was not the Holocaust and that there were disastisfied actors amongst the Armenian community. One must take the entire thing as a whole- you ignore the fact they WERE under an autocrat after all and seem to romanticize the late Ottoman Empire as a time of happiness and peace until those troublesome Armenians decided they wanted to be greedly so let’s REBEL for fun!! You ignore that

    1. most Armenians had nothing to do with revolutionary activities to begin with
    2. the bulk of those who suffered were the women and children on the death marches (what else can you call purposely sending people to the desert without food or proper resources or protection, an “unforeseen mishap”?! Don’t be naive!) and people who posed absolutely no threat to the Turkish state.
    3. There were revolutionaries in EVERY corner of the Ottoman Empire, if Armenians got what they deserved then what the perscription was the liquidation of everyone who wasn’t a Turk. I don’t see what the difference is between an Armenian revolutionary and an Arab or a Greek or a Bulgarian, etc. Each of them had unhappy members, because what you seem to continuously ignore is that while it was once a bastion of tolerance, the late OE under Abdul Hamid and then again under the post-1913 triumverate was a brutal place in serious need of reform. Tanzimat was repealed and the minorities were far from equal citizens. If you think treatment like that should go unprotested (as the Armenian patriarch did), then fine, but you’ve obviously never lived under an autocratic regime.

    I agree that 1915 is not black and white- but that doesn’t mean you therefore have the right to only see one shade of grey.


  5. on November 20, 2007 at 6:18 pm Kathy

    Michael,

    In a nutshell, what you appear to be saying here is that the reason for the organized Turkish slaughter of 1.5 Armenians during WWI is that 30 years prior to that period, Armenians had battled Turks in an ongoing war of rebellion designed to get their own country.

    Except that you don’t believe that 1.5 Armenians were killed in an organized slaughter.

    And at the same time you imply that the Armenians exaggerated and fabricated the slaughter to get the sympathy of the outside world and get the outside world to intervene on their behalf.

    So I’m somewhat confused still about exactly what it is you are declaring. Are you saying that there was no organized slaughter of Armenians — i.e., genocide, and that 1.5 million Armenians were not killed? Or are you saying that there was an organized slaughter but that it was justified because Turks were killed and suffered at the hands of Armenian nationalists? You do clearly acknowledge the relocations (you use that word), and that in itself belies your point, because mass relocations are illegal, and are one of the markers of genocide.

    At any rate, your assertion that “The above aren’t opinions. They’re facts.” is absurd. The Armenians’ nationalist aspirations and the violence resulting therefrom are matters of record, and clearly are factual. But everything you take from that — all the quoted claims of exaggerating and fabricating Armenian suffering and engaging in a deliberate campaign to get the outside world to intervene — is opinion, not fact. You are speaking to people’s motivations, and you are quoting people who are speaking to people’s motivations. These are not facts. These are opinions, and highly prejudicial opinions at that.

    And then there is also the larger truth here: that although it is undoubtedly true that Armenian nationalists caused much suffering among Turks, including many innocent civilians, that does not explain or justify the organized slaughter and relocation of 1.5 million Armenians, which of course IS genocide. Killing innocents in war or whenever is always a crime and should be treated as such, but it’s not genocide and it does not justify a genocidal response.

    What I’m trying to get across here is that you seem to be all over the map in what you’re saying. You write that “many innocent Armenians were killed during the relocations” and you acknowledge that this was “sad.”


  6. on November 20, 2007 at 6:18 pm Michael van der Galiën

    But I already told you yesterday: “Atrocities and Genocide Inflicted Upon Turks by Armenians” by Binark. The reason only pro-Turkish websites publish this info is, wait for it, because they’re the only ones who take the time to investigate what Armenians did to Turks.

    What’s more, Turks have forsaken their duty. They should’ve shared their side of the story with the world, they didn’t.

    As said, I also own the English and Turkish translations of the Ottoman documents. These leave no room for doubt either.

    Lastly, you write

    I agree that 1915 is not black and white- but that doesn’t mean you therefore have the right to only see one shade of grey.

    O no, I see different shaded of gray, but realize that both sides committed the same ‘grayish’ sins.


  7. on November 20, 2007 at 6:20 pm Kathy

    Please ignore my last paragraph. That was from a previous draft that I should have deleted.


  8. on November 20, 2007 at 6:23 pm Michael van der Galiën

    Kathy: I’ve stopped debating this with you already because you purposefully misinterprete and twist what I write. Once you stop doing that I’m happy to take you seriously.

    Just for the other readers, to recap:
    - there was no government-organized attempt to exterminate the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia
    - the gangs that killed hundreds of thousands of Armenians acted on their own
    - many of those were later punished by the Ottoman government
    - Armenians started ‘rebelling’ and killing innocent Muslims well before the first World War, they continued doing so for decades (sporadically) and when the First World War broke out they stepped up the attacks
    - Armenians exaggerated their losses in the late 1900s, probably as well in WWI - in an attempt to get Western powers to act on their behalf
    - this was a civil war, not a genocide
    - if we take words like that in our mouth, we could say that both sides engaged in ethnic cleansing, but I wouldn’t even go so far because the Ottoman government didn’t want Armenians to be killed, while the Armenian leaders were the ones telling their followers how to kill as many Turks as possible


  9. on November 20, 2007 at 6:35 pm Paul

    “But I already told you yesterday: “Atrocities and Genocide Inflicted Upon Turks by Armenians” by Binark.”

    OK, so you are quoting a book which strives to prove it wasn’t even civil war but GENOCIDE upon Turks by Armenians. Please, I don’t even think the serious Turkish propagandists claim this. The notion it was an Armenian Genocide of Turks is absurd and I think you acknowledge that, and yet you have no problem using quotes this guy produces even though he is clearly EXTREMELY biased.

    “The reason only pro-Turkish websites publish this info is, wait for it, because they’re the only ones who take the time to investigate what Armenians did to Turks.”

    Michael, there’s a thin line between the notion you push and the field of “nobody pays attention to this guy because he’s a quack”. How convenient, in this case nobody believing or paying attention to this guy’s work is proof of it being the absolute truth- when I bet in 99 examples about OTHER topics it’d be interpreted as just the opposite.
    You believe it’s civil war- therefore anyone claiming genocide occured is a liar. Armenians are liars, according to you. These lying Armenians take quotes out of context or make them up in order to prove these events were genocide.
    OK, so then what does that make Binark?

    I just find this whole thing so comical because over and over I’ve tried to make you see how you have a double standard (you accept without question quotes which are utterly unsourced except by a guy who is trying to prove that it was a TURKISH GENOCIDE, and yet refuse to believe anything said by anyone who says it was Armenian Genocide. And yet you still continue to say you are unbiased and fair on this issue.) Sorry but the alleged quotes of third party foreigners (whose quotes, if real, necessarily were translated through at least one or two languages, often one being Turkish) being funneled through a blatant Turkish propagandist (what are his credentials as historian? I have found nothing but some close ties to the Turkish government. To you, close ties to the Armenian government would automatically color if not discredit the author, yet in the case of the Turkish side…) are far from compelling. It’s just so unfair you trust that unquestioningly and yet everything an Armenian Genocide proponent says is a lie. No matter how much you deny it, your bias is showing.


  10. on November 20, 2007 at 6:40 pm Michael van der Galiën

    Paul: no, the only thing you have tried to do is to discredit everything - and I mean everything - that questions what you believe. You never respond to facts, you never say “well, yes that’s indeed terrible,” you act like a lawyer, and a bad one at that.

    “No matter how much you deny it, your bias is showing.”

    It’s unbelievable: let me repeat myself. I agree with Turks on this one. I don’t think it was genocide. I think that the violence came from both sides. I think that Armenians are just as guilty as Turks.

    And… actually, the Armenians truly tried to kill off all Muslims living in the area they wanted for themselves. That’s impression I’m increasingly getting.

    Having said that, because I’m not as easy as you are to call things genocide, I won’t call it genocide. I would call it ethnic cleansing.

    What I find most remarkable is that you and many like you argue that the Armenians acted out of self-defense. That’s simply not true. They were the aggressors, there’s little doubt in my mind about that.

    Having said that, aggression from one group doesn’t excuse aggression from the other. This means that the Turkish gangs and Kurds should’ve been punished for crimes against fellow civilians and even against humanity.

    Same goes for the Armenians responsible for the killings of Turkish Muslims.

    - the turks did indeed punish many of those responsible
    - the armenians celebrate their criminals as heroes

    see a difference there?


  11. on November 20, 2007 at 6:54 pm Paul

    “And… actually, the Armenians truly tried to kill off all Muslims living in the area they wanted for themselves. That’s impression I’m increasingly getting.”

    I am not going to give an opinion on this impression but let’s say it’s COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY TRUE.
    Does that make everything Binark and Turkish propagandists say true? You seem to defend ALL of their views with the mantra of “Armenians wanted Turks dead in 1915″. Of course I am very much against your consistent lumping in the entire Armenian population into the revolutionary column, your consisntent resistence to answering my question of what kind of a threat the women and children were to the Turkish military that they needed to be sent on a clear death march for “security purposes”, and that you don’t take the autocratic and repressive nature of the Ottoman Empire in its final decades into account (all fault always lies with the oppressed, not the oppresser Abdul-Hamid II), let’s just say that ok Armenians wanted all the Turks dead.
    Fine, but does that make all those quotes provided by a clearly biased Turkish source true? You continue to use your conclusion that it was civil war and not genocide to validate absolutely everything that any pro-Turk says on the issue. This is like running with scissors on the issue but you can’t care and go back around to just validate everything with the notion that Armenians killed Turks. Anyone can fabricate anything, and using a book that strives to prove it was Armenian Genocide of Turks to supply ALL your quotes is no different than using quotes found in some imaginary book published by an Armenian government official. They are both equally susceptible to forgeries, fabrications, and using quotes out of context. Your stubborn refusal to see this and continuous usage of Binark’s totally unverfied quotes as fact just because you believe his conclusion is beyond frusterating.

    How is that any different than an Armenian taking some pro-genocide quote published by some Armenian attributed to some random official and saying “I agree Armenians were exterminated, therefore this quote is completely accurate”?? The answer: it’s not.


  12. on November 20, 2007 at 7:12 pm Michael van der Galiën

    Are you just continuing to argue that way, or are you actually willing to accept that your ancestors did some ethnic cleansing of their own.

    If so: shouldn’t they be condemned?

    Oppression: researching authentic material quickly gives one the impression that they weren’t oppressed, but that they wanted to convince people they were so they gained support for their ’cause.’

    No - the Ottoman Empire overreacted. It shouldn’t have relocated women and children. On the other hand, from a historical perspective I understand the overreaction. All the more so because the Ottoman government sent instructions to its officers not to harm the Armenians and to take care of them to the best of their abilities.

    They even told them to make sure that the Armenians could live well in the lands they were relocated to.

    How do I know that? Because various books - historical works, by (Western) historians - rely on Ottoman documents and explain it and because I own a copy of translations of Ottoman archives.

    Does, was it genocide? No.

    Did Turks and Kurds ignore the orders from their government and kill many innocent people? Yes, they did. They massacred them. And that was horrible. But ‘massacres’ doesn’t equal genocide - as you should know, for if it does, your ancestors are guilty of genocide (as well).

    And then, then the dream of Great-Armenia will never become reality, will it?


  13. on November 20, 2007 at 7:28 pm Paul

    “Are you just continuing to argue that way, or are you actually willing to accept that your ancestors did some ethnic cleansing of their own.”

    Last I checked, most of my ancestors were actually in America at this time. A few of them who weren’t died on the death marches or were helped to escape by Turkish friends. Stop making this so personal, Turks and Armenians needs to learn to stop directly insinuating each others direct ancestors were murderers when this is about the wider races.

    Meanwhile I have many times said it’s clear people died on both sides, why is this always about me allegedly not caring that Turks died or being unable to say I regret it. I regret the deaths of all civilians. I am saying the numbers are highly exaggerated and it’s funny how in all likelihood much of this was done by the Russian army and not Armenian irregulars and yet ALL of it is now attributed to those Armenians for political purposes.

    “No - the Ottoman Empire overreacted. It shouldn’t have relocated women and children. On the other hand, from a historical perspective I understand the overreaction.”

    Well that’s an opinion, and a pretty callous one seeing as I don’t care what revolutionaries are doing, we are talking about women and children and families.

    All I’m saying here is that you take quotes provided by a Turkish official (doesn’t appear to have historian credentials) and say that every quote he says is correct because of your belief it was not genocide. A fair blog would make it clear that these quotes, which you assert as being direct, are actually from a book of Turkish propaganda. This does not mean they are all FALSE, but it does mean that they are NOT direct. There is no assurance that this non-historian publisher either took liberties with the translation, purposely took them out of context, or that the Turkish translations he got were bad (of which has been alleged about at least one source). Meanwhile he knowingly misrepresented Papazian as a historian when he was a politician talking about a 1933 dispute in America, so that’s a clear case of taking it out of context.
    Even if everything he said is perfectly accurate, you owe it to your readers to acknowledge that you have NOT seen the
    and that these many quotes which have helped to convince you it was not genocide do come from a publication of a Turkish government official, of whose best interest it is of course that it be proven that indeed it was an Armenian Genocide of Turks as he claims.
    In fact, you should have already taken what he said with a grain of salt because of his aggressive thesis it was a genocide of Turks and offered a disclaimer. You need to be more careful whose work you accept (Shaw and Lewis are one thing, but who claims this official as a historian?!)

    Basically you continue to not see the ethical problem of signing off as accurate every quote provided by a Turkish propagandist (without even seeing the originals for yourself, just his take on them) while summarily rejecting anything said by an Armenian.


  14. on November 20, 2007 at 7:44 pm P. Connolly

    What I’m seeing in some of these posts above is more Armenian tunnel vision. In spite of all the historical ties to “Holy Russia” they would have us believe that as the “sick man” breathed his last breaths, as the Christian Powers -with their long history of demanding -and getting- “capitulations” - positioned themselves to deliver the coup de grace, all Armenians remained loyal subjects of the Sultan and these widely reported uprisings are all part of a Turkish plot or Turkish Propaganda.

    All these posts have really succeeded in doing is attacking Michael on issues that really amount to technicalities. The fact of the matter is that even the best historians make small mistakes and later correct themselves. Arguing that the sources aren’t good enough because of relatively small problems with them is not a valid argument. If a few of them have larger problems that can be dealt with but the fact is that the key facts are available from multiple good sources. And we do not discount a source simply because he is Armenian or coming from the Armenian side of the debate. Only if an Armenian apologist argues something which is clearly not supported by outside facts do we reject it. When we speak of an Armenian Propaganda machine and the lies coming from it we’re talking about big lies. Like the deliberate, conscious attempt to conceal the fact that they are promoting a very loose interpretation of the word ‘genocide’ which can include all kinds of large-scale atrocities perpetrated by the so-called victim ethnic group. We’re talking about representing the “deportation” as something akin to Hitler’s deportation of Jews to the gas chamber when the facts of the situation clearly show otherwise – that’s lying Propaganda. When the Turks finally, after years of silence, stand up and try to defend themselves against such blatant lies and in the process make some mistakes - that’s not propaganda and it’s not necessarily bias either.


  15. on November 20, 2007 at 8:01 pm Paul

    “All these posts have really succeeded in doing is attacking Michael on issues that really amount to technicalities.”

    All I’m saying is that he accepts quotes found in a book by a Turkish official as gospel because they reconfirm his belief but ignores any and every quote or view of an Armenian as a lie. As I have pointed out there are numerous problems with and a total lack of confirmation regarding those found in the Turkish book, but he seems to argues that since they confirm his view- which is (to him) the absolute truth- they must be correct.
    He should be applying the same standard of authenticity to both Armenian AND Turkish produced quotes, or at least be cognizant that there are motives to prove 1915 one thing or another on BOTH sides and that neither are immune from fabrication or deception- especially when it comes to these otherwise unverified quotes he uses so confidently.

    “We’re talking about representing the “deportation” as something akin to Hitler’s deportation of Jews to the gas chamber when the facts of the situation clearly show otherwise”

    I already said the two things are not equal- every situation is different and just because one mass death has these attributes and this one has different ones is not relevant. They are all different in their own ways- and furthermore since when is the standard for it being genocide gas chambers? There were no gas chambers in Rwanda, and in fact a lot of death and murder on both sides of that conflict as well. It’s still called genocide.
    Meanwhile, I will point out that at Der Zor a lot of those who survived were put into caves and fires lit at their entrances. A video crew even went to the caves in today’s Syria and found it littered with bone fragments. Primative gas chambers? But this is neither here nor there, Michael does not hold Turkish sources to the same standard of Armenian sources because in his opinion the Turks are right. He also says the fact that no historian has ever used the quotes in question before is that nobody else has cared and it took a Turkish propagandist working for its government to uncover them and should be trusted 100% that they are completely accurate despite no proof that they are. Sorry but that won’t come even near close to being acceptable in academia.


  16. on November 20, 2007 at 8:25 pm P. Connolly

    Regarding the statement above: “I am saying the numbers are highly exaggerated” - perhaps this is key to the issue. I would argue that it doesn’t take large numbers to create an extremely volatile situation under the circumstances. When we consider the fact that WW1 broke out in 1914 and the chaotic situation in Constantinople by 1915, and the breakdown of law and order in Eastern Anatolia, the situation becomes clearer. Looking at it from the point of view of the Turks at that time, we can scarcely think of any vulnerability more imminent than the threat from the the hereditary enemy of the Ottomans; Russia. Hindsight is 20-20 and we now know that there was a Russian Revolution in 1917 but in 1915 this could not have been forseen. As stated previously, it doesn’t take large numbers to create an extremely volatile situation under the circumstances. The Armenian side would have us ignore the fact that the leadership in Constantinople had every reason to be worried about developments in Eastern Anatolia; they would have us believe that the Turks just “wanted to get rid of” the Armenians and moved them for this “genocidal” purpose but the facts -both from the historical context and documentation- clearly show other motivations.


  17. on November 20, 2007 at 8:31 pm P. Connolly

    Further on the “large numbers”: The term “civil war” has connotations which may be causing a difficulty here; I don’t use the term. It’s true that it would take “large numbers” to have a situation that could be called a “civil war” as the term is usually understood. But it doesn’t take large numbers to create an extremely volatile situation in circumstances like those that existed in Eastern Anatolia in 1915.


  18. on November 20, 2007 at 8:37 pm Nihat

    The purpose of all the incidents and uprisings was to induce the European states to intervene in the domestic affairs of the Ottoman state.

    This quote, attributed to a certain Papazian, is supposed to be a politician’s words “about a 1933 dispute in America.” How that is beats me.


  19. on November 20, 2007 at 8:39 pm Michael van der Galiën

    This quote, attributed to a certain Papazian, is supposed to be a politician’s words “about a 1933 dispute in America.” How that is beats me.

    Umh, what?


  20. on November 20, 2007 at 8:41 pm Berge

    1) Who did not rebel against the Ottoman Empire?

    Greeks rebelled, Bulgarians rebelled, Romanians rebelled, Serbians rebelled, Arabs in Syria and Lebanon rebelled, Arabs in Mesopotamia and elsewhere rebelled, Egyptians and others rebelled, Albanians, Macedonians, even the YOUNG TURKS rebelled against the Ottoman Empire, and what is so different about Armenians?

    2) Turks in the Russian Empire rebelled against the Russians and sided with the Ottoman Empire.

    Like many ethnic groups spread across empires, Turks living in the Russian Empire rebelled against the Russians and sided with the Ottoman Turkish empire fighting the Russians.

    Armenians who were subject to the Russian Empire were mostly loyal to the Russian Empire just as Armenians in the Ottoman Empire were loyal to it.

    3) American rebellion against the British Empire

    The US revolution started in New England when the British levied heavy taxes on the colonials, among other oppressive British rule on the colonials - the result was a REVOLUTION - REBELLION - that threw the British back across the Atlantic back where they came from.


  21. on November 20, 2007 at 8:44 pm Nihat

    Shoot!.. Are you echoing, or was I not clear, Michael? That’s what Paul claims.


  22. on November 20, 2007 at 8:46 pm Michael van der Galiën

    Echoing


  23. on November 20, 2007 at 8:51 pm Vahe

    Hi Again Micheal,

    You still haven’y clarified where you got information on the EU parliament genocide resolution being cancelled. You were wrong on the issue but you reiterated it several times on your blog. The only sources carrying the article was the Azeri press agency and Anti Armenian sites. They were as you were 100% wrong. If you/your sources can’t be relied upon in present history can you be relied upon for past history?

    Have you noticed that the number of people replying on your blogs on this subject are only a handful?

    AS I said in a previous entry you are perhaps purposefully being quoted and refered to in anti Armenian sites as if you are somebody who has spent his career on studying the subject. You are young and think perhaps everyhing is not only a game, but importantly everything on the internet is true. The only people who are currently reading your articles and are taking them seriously are the Turkish ultranationalists - you are doing more damage than anything else. If you want to know the truth do everything you can for freedom of speech in Turkey! Why are historians in Turkey not allowed to discuss the word genocide in the Armenian context?

    All you have been doing in your articles is try to come up with a clear reason why the Armenians were such a great danger, you are looking for excuses, for reasons, for ‘mitigating circumstances’ for what hapened to the Armenians and in a way the Turks were right in doing what they did. You are only prolonging the whole issue, not solving anything. When people inside Turkey can talk openly about any subject then you will get your truth in the mean time I hope you have more sense before you start using your ‘copy’ and ‘paste’ icons.


  24. on November 20, 2007 at 8:58 pm Michael van der Galiën

    O please cut the crap. I backed that up and I’m not getting back at it. You’re purposefully lying about the EU - as so many of your fellow lobbyists do.

    In fact, you should e-mail Brussels once. Or look at the latest ‘demands’ for Turkey. No ‘recognition’ demand.

    But you continue to lie, and lie, and lie. I linked to Dutch sources, but you continue to lie. You’re part of the lobby. That’s fine, but I’m not going to argue with extreme nationalists like you.

    Also stop complaining about 301: it’s being amended, everyone knows that. What not everyone knows, however, is that Armenia has its own 301s, doesn’t it? Not everybody knows either that you guys have been bombing homes of professors who dared to disagree. What not everyone knows is that Armenian terrorists have tried to kill those who disagree with them. What not everyone knows is that sometimes people need protection - who live in free countries - because some Armenians find it necessary to threaten to kill them.

    of course, you talk about Hrant Dink and you’re right that it’s horrible what happened to him… but you conveniently forget to mention that - once again - your own side has a history of using violence, threats and blackmail.

    I know what you’re doing and it’s not working. The truth will come out and your side will lose. Why? Because you can only lie and distort for so long. Now you see people who know the truth speak out.

    That didn’t happen for a long time, but now it is.

    BTW: weren’t you banned?


  25. on November 20, 2007 at 9:20 pm Paul

    “This quote, attributed to a certain Papazian, is supposed to be a politician’s words “about a 1933 dispute in America.” How that is beats me.”

    1. The book in which it is found is a political treatise, not a work by a historian as is claimed by Michael via Binark.
    2. It was a work which came out of a bitter dispute in America of the Ramgavar political party vs. the Tashnag political party. Accepting it as an unbiased historical account of exactly what the Tashnags would be like letting Rush Limbaugh write a book on Al Gore- except the Tashnag-Ramgavar feud was so fierce it probably would have made Gore vs. Rush look like a walk in the park.
    3. The quote, taken out of its context, leaves more questions than answers. One is left wondering which uprisings he is talking about and to what degree, we aren’t able to see what he was talking about- however as I said as it is a political treatise against another party we can’t exactly take what he says as gospel.
    But don’t take my word for it.
    A quick search on Google for the book where the quote originated, Patriotism Perverted, brings up a review found in the JSTOR database of this book. It was published in International Affairs (Royal Institute of International Affairs 1931-1939), Vol. 14, No. 4 (Jul. - Aug., 1935), pp. 584-586 by George F. Gracey and can be found here:
    http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=1473-8104(193507%2F08)14%3A4%3C584%3APP%3E2.0.CO%3B2-%23

    It begins: “Mr. K. S. Papazian in Patriotism Perverted brings a terrible indictment against the society called Dachnakist. The arguements he brings forth are so overloaded and exaggerated that they defeat their own ends, and the book leaves the impression that it was not written with the idea of being helpful and constructive, or to give the outsider an insight into Armenian problems, but rather with the view of airing a grievance.”

    Now do you see my point about this haphazard quoting? Anyone can find enough quotes to argue ANYTHING they want by hunting and pecking in enough sources, even this one quote *gasp!* by an Armenian. The obvious problem with this rationale AS I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG is that by merely giving quotes, we are not only devoid of their context but also without real knowledge of what it’s all about or motives behind it. I find this to be a quite elementary fact of academia, and am exasperated that you continue to rail against this fact of life- but there you go. If I haven’t driven the point home yet there’s clearly hope.
    Propaganda is a two way street! Both sides can be guilty! Quit unthinkingly accepting everything from one side without verification and using it as a means to automatically refute and ignore absolutely everything from the opposite side! This isn’t called critical thinking it’s called partisan hackery and undermines your (allegedly) more impartial and even-handed view of the events surrounding 1915.


  26. on November 20, 2007 at 9:37 pm Vahe

    Before you get too upset - I do not belong to any lobby group nor to any Armenian group what so ever, Most of my friends now are actually English/European. Don’t jump to conclusions just because I am debating with you. Actually you couldn’t be further from the truth.

    I don’t think this issue is about winning or losing - There are and will be no winners on this issue there will only be loosers. Which ever side is right.

    In the above I did not say what the truth would be, please read it agian. All I said is that freedom of speech has to happen before the truth is known and this issue is resolved that is the only way. You are perhaps too young to remember that before 301 there was another law I think 189 or something like that. 301 was supposed to have been different , but it is still the same. Also perhaps you are not aware that the offices and homes of writers/publishers/human rights activists in Turkey have been and are regularly firebombed and they and their families are threatened. I hope that this time the law will truly change.

    With regard to the EU recognition, we both know what you said. It was the EU recognition of the Genocide. I know the eu parliaments recognition and its demand on Turkey to recognise it (and yes it does not require it to do so now). they are two different things. The EU parliamnets recognition still stands, but it no longer requires Turkey to recgnise it before entry, that I agree, but you didn’t say this you infered that it was the EU parliaments recognition.One respondee said that it was only recognition before entry, but you reiterated that it was the actual recognition that had taken place in 1987, but had now not passed, please don’t call me a liar. You did not refer to a site, but instead wrote a sentence in Dutch and translated it. I have not insulted you in any way please do not do so to me.
    And no I have not been banned. If you keep banning everybody who does not agree with you, you will only end up with yourself on the blog.

    I am very disappointed that no one talks about the 300,000 plus Christian Assyrians that were killed during the period, could you please discuss them as well.


  27. on November 20, 2007 at 9:45 pm Michael van der Galiën

    You continue to lie.

    From 29-09-2006, blog of the Dutch newspaper the Volkskrant, the Volkskrantblog:
    “Het Europees Parlement wenst historisch onderzoek naar de vermeende genocide op Ottomaanse Armenen in de periode 1915-1917. Dit heeft het Parlement eergisteren besloten. Hiermee komt het Parlement terug op zijn standpunt dat het vaststaat dat het Ottomaanse Rijk genocide heeft gepleegd op zijn Armeense onderdanen. Het Parlement laat verder vallen de eis dat Turkije deze genocide moet erkennen alvorens toe te kunnen treden tot de Europese Unie.”

    Translation:
    “The European Parliament wishes that a historical research is conducted about the alleged genocide on Ottoman Armenians in the period 1915-1917. The Parliament decided this the day before yesterday. With this decision, the Parliament retracts its earlier opinion that it’s without doubt that the Ottoman Empire committed a genocide on its Armenian subjects. Furthermore, the Parliament drops the demand that Turkey has to recognize this genocide if it wants to join the European Union.”

    Azeri newspaper my ass.


  28. on November 20, 2007 at 9:48 pm Nihat

    OK, clear now. By the way, I don’t think a politicians’s words are of lesser value than those of an historian. Also, is this Patriotism Perverted by Papazian the book that is alleged to have been systematically removed from American libraries? For the terrible indictment it brought against the Armenian cause?


  29. on November 20, 2007 at 9:49 pm Michael van der Galiën

    Perhaps it’s useful to point out that a legal study conducted in 2003, at the order of the Center for Transnational Study concluded that what happened can’t be brought to court on genocide charges.

    This is one of the reasons that the UN doesn’t vote in favor of a resolution calling what happened a genocide.

    Of course, you don’t care about facts, do you?


  30. on November 20, 2007 at 10:05 pm Michael van der Galiën

    Nihat: are you sure that they banned books? I mean, it’s not as if they blow up homes of professors, say the one of Shaw…

    O, wait…

    Ok, let me give you a better example: it’s not as if they sent death threats to bloggers who disagree with them…

    O, wait…

    Ok, the best one: it’s not as if they routinely use false information, even when they know it’s false…

    O, wait…

    Screw it.


  31. on November 20, 2007 at 10:07 pm Paul

    Perhaps it’s useful to point out that a legal study conducted in 2003, at the order of the Center for Transnational Study concluded that what happened meets all the qualifications and requirements of a genocide.

    Kind of ironic you’d dare to cite it then Michael…

    “I don’t think a politicians’s words are of lesser value than those of an historian.”

    So Rush Limbaugh and Samantha Power or Bernard Lewis are equally qualified to talk about Ottoman history?
    I thought the whole Turkish arguement was “LET THE HISTORIANS DECIDE, NOT THE POLITICIANS”. Suddenly they’re equals? Did you not read the review of the book which said it was just a bunch of exaggerated partisan hackery??!


  32. on November 20, 2007 at 10:12 pm Richard

    Actually the study was in 2002 and it was done by the International Center for Transitional Justice
    http://www.ictj.org .

    The ICTJ opinion was essentially that the Genocide Convention could not apply retroactively (i.e. to events prior to 1951) but that the events in question would fall within the definition of genocide as: ”.. viewed collectively, can thus be said to include all of the elements of the crime of genocide as defined in the Convention, and legal scholars as well as historians, politicians, journalists and other people would be justified in continuing to so describe them”. http://www.genocidewatch.org/TurkeyArmeniaREPORTOFTHETARC.htm


  33. on November 20, 2007 at 10:14 pm Michael van der Galiën

    So Richard, please inform me: what’s the strategy now (obviously partially wrong conclusion of the ICTJ, but hey, they’re on the right track)? Forcing Turkey to give up lands under international pressure cause you can’t do it in court?

    O wait… yep that is the new strategy.


  34. on November 20, 2007 at 10:34 pm Nihat

    Paul, you’re being disingenious in #31 (and maybe in general). Limbaugh and Power are not politicians, they are pundits. They (or modern-day politicians who are removed from the events in both time and place) cannot be equated to Papazian, an Armenian politician/player involved in the struggles, can they? This stikes me as a lame attempt to bury what Papazian said in noise. (Not that I think he should be taken as all-explaining, or his context should be ignored…)


  35. on November 20, 2007 at 10:40 pm P. Connolly

    I think that the reason Michael mentioned the ICTJ’s finding was for the legal part of it. Just as one would go to a lawyer and ask “should I bring this case to court”, some folks thought they would pose the question to a group of lawyers as to whether - based on what they knew of the legal footing - they would think it would be possible to bring the case before the ICJ.

    In my view, their opinion saying that “the events can thus be said to include all of the elements of the crime of genocide as defined in the Convention, and legal scholars as well as historians, politicians, journalists and other people would be justified in continuing to so describe them” constitutes a wide deviation from their sphere of jurisdiction and the statement is about as authoritative as it would have been had it come from a meeting of the Boy Scouts of America.

    In effect it is like their saying that “no this issue cannot be brought before the ICJ but if we were justices of the ICJ we would decide as follows…”. The only question they were at all qualified to comment on was the question of whether the case would even be able to be brought before the ICJ, not on whether the historical circumstances constituted “genocide” as defined in the convention. That’s a question which the justices of the ICJ would have had to make after evidence and arguments were fully examined according to the procedures of the court.


  36. on November 20, 2007 at 10:41 pm Richard

    Clearly Turkey will not give up land even under pressure. This does not mean that individuals and institutions (e.g. churches, schools) cannot recover property or at least receive compensation or damages. The life insurance settlements, most recently with Axa but earlier also with New York Life, are an example.

    The Ottoman property registers are likely to provide interesting case material as there is research going on now into the wholesale confiscation of Armenian property at the time of the genocide.


  37. on November 20, 2007 at 10:43 pm Nihat

    Re: “Did you not read the review of the book which said it was just a bunch of exaggerated partisan hackery??!”

    Firstly, I am always interested in ‘exaggerated partisan hackery’ not directed at my side. Why not? Right? Or, do you not cherish Turkish romantics?

    Secondly, where can I find the original of this ‘exaggerated partisan hackery’? Can I find it? Or, should I be content with the aforementioned review?


  38. on November 20, 2007 at 10:45 pm Michael van der Galiën

    Richard: I believe that it would be a major mistake for Turkey to give anything. ARmenians rebelled, the consequences are theirs. What’s more, they themselves took possession of properties of Turkish Muslims when they could.

    Trading cows for cows isn’t useful.

    Sadly, this is what happens in a civil war. In the end, as always, both sides lose.

    It was the result of their violence and rebellion. They did the same thing to Turks…

    Done.

    Both sides suffered, done.


  39. on November 20, 2007 at 10:48 pm Paul

    But you don’t even know who Papazian is Nihat! Of course he’s a pundit! He’s commenting on the events and taking aside- I never said he was a major party leader or player on one of those sides. It’s just so ridiculous that we are even discussing him, since NOBODY knows who he is to begin with! Everyone is commenting on 1933 and a political struggle in the US without knowing anything about it and are clearly making assumptions about Mr. Papazian’s qualifications without even knowing who he is.
    As I have made clear from the review, Papazian was not a party leader but a partisan hack for his side of the debate. Tensions were at their highest at the time of it’s publishing and it’s aim was to smear the other side as much as possible. What I am railing against here is the need to canonize works such as this into the historiography of 1915 up there with works by Lewis, Shaw, and other real historians. As I have pointed out numerous times there’s clearly not any credibility to this work and it should be considered within its context, but you Nihat are squirming around attempting to find any possible way to canonize Papazian- even going to the point of claiming that the works of politicians (or in this case an obvious partisan hack) are EQUAL to that of historical research. It’s just ridiculous! Admitting these quotes are bunk, or at least not credible, will NOT sink your whole point so stop trying to defend absolutely every little part of it, just like Michael.
    Meanwhile Michael hasn’t responded to my many revelations on Papazian amongst others at all, since I’ve clearly proven them unreliable and not true historical works.


  40. on November 20, 2007 at 10:55 pm Michael van der Galiën

    Paul: I don’t respond because it’s all you do. Poke holes, ignore the substance.

    Utterly amazing.

    Me thinks you’re a lawyer (and yes, lawyers take obvious sides).


  41. on November 20, 2007 at 11:25 pm Nihat

    Paul, upon your first explanation (#25) of what you meant, I said (#28) “OK, clear now,” didn’t I? I am not working to canonize anything into the historiography. I am not a historian. You don’t know me, so please don’t attribute stuff to me (like I am squirming to… whatever) in your zeal to prove Michael wrong, or whatever. Bottomline is, you don’t know how fair I can be, or how independent-minded I am. Or, any Turk you happen to get in an argument with, for that matter. So hold your horses…

    If Papazian was a party hack, so be it. But the problem is, he said what he said in 1933, not in 2007. Furthermore, what he said is not something that remains uncorroborated. So it is not terribly important but of natural interest to me. Again, not that I am poised to assume him to be all-explaining, or ignore his context or who he was. But again, you don’t even like the idea that I should be able to judge that for myself.

    Enough said about this Papazian guy. I am not going to carry on about this point any more. I think, Connolly was right: in essence, this is a technicality.


  42. on November 20, 2007 at 11:38 pm Paul

    Sorry that I missed the OK, clear, but with such a mass of text that is the comments section it’s hard to miss little things like that. I’m not trying to crusade, I’m trying to make my point which was stated from the beginning clear, nobody seems to get it though.


  43. on November 21, 2007 at 12:56 am John Anderson

    admin: accusations that all disagreement must be the result of bribery/corruption are not welcome here


  44. on November 21, 2007 at 1:17 am Areen

    admin: as I warned several times before, those who bring others’ personal lives into the discussion OR accuse others of being bought/bribed will be banned. Also, those who evade previous bans will be immediately re-banned without notice as soon as they are detected.

    It is remarkable how many people seem unable to obey simple rules of basic civility here. The more people I have to ban, the more you undermine your own cause.


  45. on November 21, 2007 at 2:19 am Gökalp

    The so-called millions of dollars that Turkish government spends to “suppress discussion” are simply non-existent. Except for the money that Turkey spent for lobbying in the USA, which is around 1.5 million dollars.

    While even only the “traceable” money that the Armenian lobby spend is much much more than this sum. Here is a link for those who are interested.

    http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/10/2111-armenian-assembly-of-america-tax.html

    Not hear say! official stuff! More than 10.million dollars spent for supporting USA politicians. Now imagine the amount of money spent for other lobby work, publishing, advertising, supporting universities, supporting NGOs and so on.


  46. on November 21, 2007 at 3:07 am Gökalp

    I can not understand the fuss about Papasian. Armenian revolutionary groups were aware of the ups and downs of a European intervention and tired to use the European powers for their benefit. They wanted a European intervention that will give them an independent Armenia. And as the history clearly documents they ended up being a victim just like any other Revolutionary organization that asked for help from outside powers.

    If you think Papasian is not credible here is Nalbandian. “The Armenian Revolutionary Movement - The Development of Armenian Political Parties through the Nineteenth Century”. This books is a priceless work that unmasks the so called Hamidiyeh massacres, Clearly documenting that all of the events were started by Armenian revolutionaries.

    Page 8
    The first editorial of the Hunchak appealed to its readers to join the party and spread revolutionary activity. Although the ideology of the party was socialistic, help from the
    capitalist European Powers was to be accepted if any was forthcoming.

    Page 10
    The Hunchaks believed that the Demonstration of Kum Kapu, though in some degree a failure, had nonetheless served to arouse the European Powers in regard to the
    Armenian Question. The Hunchak wrote that England and Russia were vitally concerned with the whole Eastern Question, but could not agree between themselves
    about it. England wished to control Crete, and Russia was desirous of adding Turkish Armenia to its own territory. The Hunchaks opposed Russian territorial aims and
    insisted on a completely independent Armenia. They would reject any European proposals that were contrary to that supreme objective, and declared themselves ready
    to shed their “last drop of blood” for the cause.

    (HERE IS A KEY PART that summarises everything)
    How much blood was to be sacrificed for the revolution and who were to die for the cause - only a few Hunchak revolutionaries or numerous Armenian inhabitants of the interior provinces? What would be the value of an independent country whose people had been nearly wiped out in the revolutionary process? The opponents of the Hunchaks were not willing to see a large part of their nation destroyed in order that the Hunchaks might attain a dubious political goal. But the Hunchaks were not to be deterred.

    Page 12
    The Hunchaks considered the Sassun Rebellion a great victory for their party as well as for the Armenian cause. They believed that because of their revolutionary activities,
    particularly in Sassun, the European Powers at last had recognized the crying need for reforms in Armenia. On May 11, 1895, indeed, Great Britain, France, and Russia sent a
    memorandum to Sultan Abdul Hamid II urging reforms in the six Turkish Armenian provinces.

    Page 15
    The Hunchaks relied in vain on the European Powers to use coercive measures against the Sultan for the purpose of making him put into effect the Armenian Reform Program
    which he had signed in October, 1895. The activities of the Hunchaks had only helped to enrage Sultan Abdul Hamid II, who already hated the Armenians and feared that they,
    like the Balkan countries, would obtain their freedom.

    ****
    Here is the link to the official site of SOCIAL DEMOCRAT HUNCHAKIAN PARTY they proudly document their revolutionary history. Still some people are trying to disregard or hide these…

    http://www.hunchak.org.au/aboutus/historical_nalbandian.html


  47. on November 21, 2007 at 3:27 am Nihat

    Gokalp, what, if anything, do you know about the armenians-1915.blogspot.com site? Are the people behind it really Turkish Armenians? (The “about us” section doesn’t say enough.)


  48. on November 21, 2007 at 4:16 am Kathy

    Kathy: I’ve stopped debating this with you already because you purposefully misinterprete and twist what I write.

    No problem, Michael, I understand. And thank you for answering my questions, although I know you were answering them “for the others,” not for me.

    To confirm my understanding of what you believe:

    1. Only about 300,000 Armenians were killed in Turkey between 1915 and 1918. The estimates of 1.5 million Armenian deaths are false.

    Question: How do you explain the mathematics of the situation? If only 300,000 Armenians were killed (at most), and if there were about 2.5 million Armenians in Turkey at the start of WWI, and if after the war only about one million were left, what happened to the extra 1,200,000 who are unaccounted for? Or were there actually 2,200,000 Armenians still living in Turkey at war’s end? Please tell me if I have the arithmetic wrong. Math was never my best subject.

    2. There were no mass deportations of Armenians; Armenians were not forced into death marches ending in the desert where they were left to die. OR, there were such deportations and marches to the desert, but the Turks carrying them out did not want or intend for the Armenians to die. And the government didn’t know it was happening. (I’m not sure which one is your position.)

    3. The Young Turk Triumvirate — the minister of the interior, Mehmed Talat Pasha (1874–1921), the minister of war, Ismail Enver, (1881–1922) and the minister of the Navy, Ahmed Djemal, (1872–1922) — did not order the mass murders of Armenians. They did not have or communicate any plan to eliminate the entire Armenian population in Turkey (by a combination of murder and deportation). They did not want Armenians to die or to be driven out of Turkey. They tried to punish Turks who killed or harmed Armenians.

    Question: Why did the Young Turks flee Turkey after the Allies won WWI and the Ottoman Empire ended? Why did Turkey’s military court try them in absentia during 1919 and 1920? What were the charges against them? Did they come back to Turkey and try to prove that they had made every effort to save Armenian lives? Was this point ever proved at all, apart from unsubstantiated claims that have no legal standing?

    It seems to me that the only way you can make the case that Armenians and Turks were equally responsible for mass murder, or that just as many innocent Turkish civilians were killed and tortured by Armenians as the reverse, is by sticking to that belief that only about 300,000 Armenians were killed. If you were to agree that roughly 1.5 million Armenians were killed, and that tens of thousands of these died of thirst, starvation, and exposure in the desert where they were left to die, your case would fall apart. Because, first, it would be obvious that an overwhelmingly higher percentage of the Armenian population died than of the Turkish population, and because, second, you could not credibly make a case for the Armenian murders being committed by gangs acting on their own without the knowledge or consent of the Three Pashas, if two-thirds of the entire Armenian population in Turkey at the time was murdered. Even the most diligent gangs might be hard-pressed to accomplish that without the government knowing and approving.


  49. on November 21, 2007 at 2:19 pm Gökalp

    Dear Nihat

    Yes there are Turkish Armenians and Turkish Turks :) who are runnig the site. But because of obvious reasons that Michael already experienced almost all of them use fake names.


  50. on November 21, 2007 at 2:52 pm Michael van der Galiën

    Kathy this is my last response to you.

    1. You once again purposefully distort my words. 300,000? Did I say that? I remember me touting a much higher number.

    2. No deportations? Again distortion. I remember saying there were. Government didn’t know about it? Yes they did actually. I already said that as well. In fact, that’s exactly why they sent out instructions to the ones leading the deportations calling on them to protect the Armenian deportees and telling them that all those who don’t defend them will be punished by military tribunals.

    3.The ones truly in charge of the government indeed opposed it. What individuals did doesn’t ‘destroy’ my case. Furthermore, if the actual government wanted the ARmenian deportees to be killed, they would not have punished those who did the killing (some fled, yes, others were actually executed by the Turks).

    Kathy: you lie and distort constantly. It’s not relevant whether relatively more Armenians died or not. Relatively more Germans died during WWII than Americans, does that mean that Germans were right and the Americans wrong? Relative more Germans (and absolutely of course) than Dutch died, does that mean that the Germans were right to terrorize our country and kill many innocent people in their quest for racial purity and that the Dutch, therefore, should be condemned? What matters is whether the Ottoman government had the intention to commit genocide. Answer: no. What matters is whether gangs and soldiers acting on their own killed Armenians. Answer yes. Does that make genocide? No. It makes massacres, Jason calls this ethnic cleansing, which is indeed more acceptable than genocide.

    What matters is whether the Armenian rebels had the intention to commit genocide and conducted ethnic cleansing. The answer: yes.

    What matters is whether Armenians rebelled before the deportations and destroyed entire Muslim villages.

    What matters is whether Armenians, during World War, stabbed the Empire in the back and launched even greater rebellions, during which they tried to wipe out the Muslim population of many villages.

    What matters is that Armenians, once the allies were winning, stepped up their criminal acts of ethnic cleaning and killed hundreds of thousands of Turks.

    What matters is that when the Armenians were winning, they slaughtered many innocent Jews simply because they weren’t Christian.

    What matters is that the Armenian criminals who committed all the above were and still are celebrated as heroes, instead of condemned as the criminals they were.

    What matters is that the Armenian lobby tried to get back lands and force the Turks to pay them ‘damages’ while they themselves destroyed Turkish villages, wiped out entire populations, and raped all the women they could get their hands on, as reported by British, French, Russian and other officers and individuals.

    What matters is that both sides suffered tremendously, but that your side refuses to acknowledge that the Turks suffered because of the criminal behavior of Armenian terrorists.

    What matters is that when someone speaks out and gives fact, you simply ignore them and go in the attack.

    What matters is that Armenian terrorists in the late 20th century tried to kill those who dared disagree with their distorted version of history.

    What matters is that you have no idea what you’re talking about, yet pretend that you do.

    What matters is that actual historians are happily ignored by people such as yourself, while fake historians like Taner Akçam are touted as experts.

    What matters is that you refuse to understand - even when the evidence is handed to you on a silver platter - that the situation was more complicated than the Armenian lobby likes to pretend.

    What matters is that the Armenian lobby continues to spread its lies and propaganda and tries to silence all those who contradict them.

    What matters is that we say racism, bigotry and prejudice still at work. For people like yourself and especially of the Armenian lobby, Muslim lives don’t count. Which results in me getting comments and e-mail from some Armenian individuals who inform me that reading what their ancestors did to innocent Muslims is greatly entertaining to them.

    What matters is that the Turks understand that although quite some ancestors of today’s Armenians committed horrible crimes, they can’t possibly hold today’s Armenians responsible while many Armenians are not quite so open-minded.

    What matters is that I have yet to meet a Turk who hates Armenians, while I’ve run into quite some Armenians who hate Turks.

    What matters is that you endorse a case and a lobby which is (partially) based on injustice, ignoring history, distorting history, prejudice and hatred for Muslim Turks.

    What matters is… well, that I won’t debate with someone like yourself who purposefully distorts what I’ve said.

    I believe there’s a word for that: a liar.

    To others: the ’some Armenians’ etc. I talk about are obviously the extreme nationalistic individuals, some of who have already been banned at this blog. I don’t mean all Armenians or even most Armenians. Only those who made it their goal in life to get the world to ‘recognize’ what happened as a genocide… by any means necessary.

    There are many other Armenians out there, who take a less aggressive approach than before mentioned extremists. These people might actually, once, be the solution to this historical problem: for these are the ones who may reach out to the other side, and the other side to them, and forgive each other(’s side).

    The other ones, however, aren’t in it for ‘forgiveness’ and ‘understanding.’ They’re in it for material gains and because of hatred for all things Turk.


  51. on November 21, 2007 at 2:55 pm Michael van der Galiën

    Gokalp, what, if anything, do you know about the armenians-1915.blogspot.com site? Are the people behind it really Turkish Armenians? (The “about us” section doesn’t say enough.)

    Turkish-Armenians, yes (and ‘normal’ Turks ;)).

    For obvious reasons, they’re anonymous.


  52. on November 21, 2007 at 7:45 pm Vahe

    OK after this I’m not coming back!
    Just for your info Micheal, re EU:

    http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=49559

    Don’t call people you dont know liars, I am old enough to be your father!


  53. on November 21, 2007 at 8:02 pm Michael van der Galiën

    Vahe, yes, please don’t come back. Unlike what you probably hoped I and others would do, the article simply repeats that it’s not a claim and doesn’t say that the EU changed its position vis-a-vis 2006.

    In other words: yes Vahe, it’s really true, the EU doesn’t recognize what happened to the Armenians as genocide.

    And rightfully so.


  54. on November 21, 2007 at 8:06 pm Michael van der Galiën

    To those who don’t want to take the time to click on the link (as the liar who’s old enough to be my father probably hopes):

    Like Ruijten, European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso has recently made it clear that “the EU is against politicization of delicate issues,” such as the Armenian issue.

    Then when asked for his personal opinion, “the commission’s vice president, Franco Frattini [...] said there have been different opinions within the commission regarding the issue. ‘Recognition [of the Armenian allegations] will be the first step towards compromise [between Armenia and Turkey],’ he told reporters when asked his personal opinion.”

    In other words:
    Official policy is no recognition
    Personal opinion of Frattini is that he basically agrees with the Armenians but even he points out that other members of the commission disagree with him.

    Please continue to lie Vahe. Sadly, when you even provide the link yourself, people can quickly prove that you’re lying.


  55. on November 21, 2007 at 8:38 pm Prims

    Michael, what I don’t get it is until when you are planning to stick with this propaganda? The time has finally came for justice to prevail. For so long 90yrs Turks did such a good job by covering up everything that happened. now since the cat is out of the bag are you seriously thinking that you still have a chance to mislead people? Turkish propaganda kept everything shut and away from everyone’s ear for so long…since Armenia was a Soviet republic and didn’t get to have a say in anything. But times have changed and the truth can stay hidden for so long….eventually it will come yo surface.
    So deal with it!!!


  56. on November 21, 2007 at 8:55 pm Michael van der Galiën

    Prims: the ones truly spreading the propaganda are the Armenian lobbyists. You and I both know that.

    But we do agree on one thing: the truth will prevail in the end.

    Bad news for you of course, but that happens when you purposefully distort history because you’re bigoted.


  57. on November 21, 2007 at 9:12 pm Haleb1

    The Turkish government spends hundreds of thousands of dollars per month on major firms (Fleishman Hillard, Livingston, DLA Piper) plus the collective forces of the United States government including the President, the State Department, the Defense Department, the Pentagon, the Joint Chiefs and all of their staffers and Congressional liaisons that lobby against the Armenian Genocide Resolution.

    Note again how I am not attacking anyone personally here so I would appreciate this being permitted to be posted in the interests of fairness and goodwill.

    A neutral observation may reveal that grassroots activists of the Armenian American community with organizational budgets that are pennies compared to the above resources may convince some to “reanalyze” their positions on who has the power to influence what and who is spreading and paying for the propaganda.


  58. on November 21, 2007 at 9:22 pm Michael van der Galiën

    “pennies”

    MUWHAHAHAHA

    That’s hilarious. Tell me, how much did they pay Akçam? Pray tell.

    Just stop it.

    And yes, getting the truth out is expensive. But in the end the Armenian lobby will lose this battle for their case is based on lies, distortions, hatred and misinformation.


  59. on November 21, 2007 at 9:33 pm Haleb2

    Check it out - it’s all at the Department of Justice - remember you have to register if you are hired by a foreign government to lobby. You know that whole influencing the internal processes of government from the outside anti-democratic type thing…


  60. on November 21, 2007 at 9:39 pm Haleb3

    Also check out http://www.gunes.com/ - can anyone translate for me? All I can understand is that big map which extends beyond Turkey’s borders…


  61. on November 21, 2007 at 9:47 pm Haleb4

    Hey man - I play fair - just tellin’ it like it is - although I must admit - I am a bit surprised how Armenia, a small nation with no water access or natural resources is somehow equated to the level of a regional power like Turkey in terms of what can be done politically. This is a staggering conceptual proposition that defies logic.

    The only thing Armenians have is truth (please reference the aforementioned himalayan evidence on the Armenian Genocide). Of course that counts for something, but so do the forces of 2 governments and their lobby firms.


  62. on November 21, 2007 at 9:49 pm Michael van der Galiën

    LMAO!

    Why is it you call yourself Haleb1, Haleb2, etc.?


  63. on November 21, 2007 at 9:50 pm Michael van der Galiën

    You are funny.


  64. on November 21, 2007 at 9:51 pm sooriyeh

    What is funny about genocide? I think that personally, what is sad is how it is denied still to this day… Let’s examine what it was - The Ottoman Empire suffered embarrassing and humiliating defeats in Europe as the Christian groups pushed them out. This anger and shame was then projected onto the Armenians and other Christians of the interior. Root them out, clean house and protect the Turkish “nation” - it was done and there is substantial, overwhelming historical evidence to prove this…the forces of the state apparatus were levied upon the Armenians and others like an anvil on an ant.


  65. on November 21, 2007 at 9:51 pm Michael van der Galiën

    And yes, the Armenian lobby (you) invests bigtime. They go after politicians, professors, etc. etc. And don’t give me that “no natural resources, etc.” crap.

    Armenia isn’t the innocent nice country you pretend it is. It’s founded on lies, and one of its main foreign policies is to get the world to accept their claims with regards to the first World War.

    How about those… one million I believe, Azeris living in oppression / camps huh?

    That’s alright of course, they’re not Christians.

    And what about actual historians being persecuted by you and your buddies? What about the attempt to even kill professors? What about the 75, I believe, individuals who were killed by Armenian extremists, simply because they disagreed w