This is inexcusable:
Dutch lawmakers who recently visited the Guantanamo Bay military prison said they were offended by a testy exchange in Washington with a senior congressional Democrat.
The lawmakers said that Rep. Tom Lantos, D-Calif., chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, told them that “Europe was not as outraged by Auschwitz as by Guantanamo Bay.”
Lantos, a Holocaust survivor, was responding to arguments that the United States should shut down the prison, located on a U.S. naval base in Cuba, the lawmakers said. Mariko Peters, a member of the Dutch Green Party, who began the exchange with Lantos, said she took notes of the remarks.
He also said: “You have to help us, because if it was not for us you would now be a province of Nazi Germany.”
This is a great example of just why America is so unpopular in European countries right now. Granted, there’s a lot of irrational anti-Americanism as well, but these are the kind of comments by which American politicians anger just about every single Europe; whether they’re pro- or anti-America.
Lantos should apologize, and the Democratic leadership should do so as well. America’s leadership even.
Funny enough, this is yet another example of Cowboy diplomacy - from Democrats. As I wrote recently, the Democrats don’t seem to be any better at diplomacy than the Republicans are. If this is the Democratic way of ‘reaching’ out, well, I’m afraid that the hand that’s reaching out will be politely ignored by the world.
Meanwhile, Pamela at Atlas Shrugs and Michelle Malkin celebrate Lantos’ for ‘daring’ to ’say it as it is.’ Pamela objects to the following:
“Let’s not forget we are in a state of war — not only the United States but also my country — with Islamic terrorists,” said the far right Freedom Party leader, Geert Wilders. “I think we could only learn from Guantanamo.”
Writing:
Note “far right” - what bullshit.
No it’s not. As a Dutch person, a conservative even, I can tell you that Wilders is indeed far right. It doesn’t take a lot of research to figure out that, indeed, he’s ‘far right’ in this country.
True. We can learn that it’s a bad idea detain people - bad ones, to be sure - and not be able to charge them.
How do we shut down Guantanamo now? Presumedly the guys still held there are even less “friendly” now than they were in the beginning.
Edit by MvdG: try that again and you’re banned.
Yet another reason to think that election choices are between bad and worse.
If you don’t toe the Democratic line…this is what you get. Are you really surprised?
But I wonder why the Republicans and/or the President should apologize for this nut of a Democrap?
“Let’s not forget we are in a state of war — not only the United States but also my country — with Islamic terrorists,”
I deny this! We are NOT in a state of war, neoconservative hysteria to the contrary. This has been one of the most insidious legacies of the Bush administration, equating the fight against the threat of terrorism (which is a real threat) to an existential, almost apocalyptic Mother of All Wars. To compare the so-called “War on Terror” to Word War II, for example, is the height of cynical (and dangerous) political opportunism, and the extent to which so many in the US have bought into this rhetoric scares me far more than the threat of terrorism does —- and that threat scares me a lot.
Even during the Cold War, no president ever claimed wartime powers, or insisted that it was a real war, or that we were in an actual “state of war”, etc. — it was rightly seen as a metaphor, and treated as such. But with this lesser (but still significant) threat from terrrorists, we are suddenly faced with the greatest threat ever against our very existence? Please!
Whatever happened to the conservatives who wisely counseled restraint, both domestically and in foreign affairs, and took heed of the warning that “War is the health of the state”? How convenient for the state (and its health) that this latest “war” has no clearly defined enemy, no clearly defined goal, and is likely to be waged indefinitely.
This is also a great example of just why Europe is unpopular in America. You may not like what Lantos said, or how he said it, but you didn’t say he was incorrect.
When this war finally hits Europe, some will surrender immediately, and the rest will make their own Guantanamos. You can count on it. It’s what they’ve always done.
He also said: “You have to help us, because if it was not for us you would now be a province of Nazi Germany.”
Aside from the minor historical fact that Lantos is, in fact, correct in his assertion, what is your objection to this comment? Hurt feelings?
Bingo! The astounding hypocrisy of Europeans is always a source of amusement.
I say the Americans close down Guantanamo and ship them all to Europe. I’m sure the Europeans will jump at the chance to prove how “humane” and “fair” they really are compared to the savage Americans.
Lantos went too far, but he was not that far off.
Not funny enough, Euro “diplomacy”, as it is, is usually almost always worse.
Bingo!
Perhaps the Americans, once they close down Guantanamo, can then send them off to Europe. I’m sure the Euros will jump at the opportunity to show how “fair” and “humane” they really are, especially compared to those American savages.
Lantos went too far, but he was not that far off…sadly.
Sorry for the double posts (well, triple!) folks. Feel free to delete my last two comments as you see fit!
Interested
Amen to what you posted in #3!
“He also said: “You have to help us, because if it was not for us you would now be a province of Nazi Germany.”
What is incorrect or untrue there? Twice in the last century alone America had to save you and solve your problems. Learn to do things for yourselves and stop being helpless crybabies.
“Lantos should apologize, and the Democratic leadership should do so as well. America’s leadership even.”
LOL. Yes, right about the same time Europeans apologize for attacking a victim (Lantos) of the their Holocaust. You’ve gone from attacking your victims to ignoring them and , now, back to attacking them again - for pointing out your very great, unequaled shame in commiting, and then ignoring the Holocaust, and your complete ingratitude at being saved from your despicable cowardly, surrending selves.
You children need to learn how to move out of the European adolescence and become responsible adults instead of the whiny kids you are. Americans are tired of having to constantly “babysit” you.
Karen;
I’m not beating on you here, but don’t forget Baron Von Steuben and Marquis de Lafayette AND the French fleet in the later 1770’s!
Had it not been for our European brethren, we wouldn’t exist today!
That’s assuming we actually solved anything by our interference in WW1.
Good grief, who came to whose country whining about the way we run a prison for detainees?
Here’s a deal. If several US Congressmen go to your country to lecture you on how your prisons are run, you can B slap ‘em all you want. And I promise not to go on the ‘innernets’ and cry about it. Now have a nice day.
There are several responses to Dutch criticism of US policy towards Guantánamo. First, the legislators do not appear to have an appreciation of the complexity of dealing with an unprecedented situation with regard to extra-national combatants who are not uniformed. Perhaps we should ship the Guantánamo prisoners to Amsterdam. I am sure the Guantánamo prisoners would be a positive addition to the riots in Amsterdam. Did the Dutch legislators also criticize the “squalid and inhumane” conditions in French prisons?
If the Dutch were pulling their own weight with regards to the war against Islamofascism, Americans would be more willing to put up with criticism from them. The Dutch government’s withdrawing security protection from Ayan Hirsi Ali gives the impression that the Dutch shirking their responsibilities to stand up for freedom, that they are not standing up to Islamofascism. Nor do the recent riots in Holland give the impression that the Dutch know what to do. Given this incompetence and shirking of responsibility of the Dutch with regards to Islamofascism, it is downright ludicrous for some Dutch legislators to lecture the US with regards to Guantánamo.
There is a great tendency on the part of Europeans to lecture Americans on their shortcomings. Bruce Bawer’s While Europe Slept gave ample evidence of that. The award-winning German journalist Markus Guenther recently wrote an article very critical of the US which was full of lies and misrepresentations about the US. This is not “constructive criticism”; this is calumny. Americans who are aware of this criticism from Europe are getting a little thin-skinned about it. While the Dutch legislators were just a grain of sand in the beach of criticisms coming from Europe, they should not be surprised that some of the response to their criticisms is a response to this torrent of criticism from Europe.
IMHO, a Holocaust survivor has some moral authority, as Maureen Dowd would say, to lecture the Europeans.
The good Congressman should apologize when the Dutch government resumes paying for security of Ayan Hirsi Ali, and develops a coherent policy to deal with Islamofascism inside and outside its country. Else the Dutch will go the way of Ann Frank, sooner or later.
I think we all need to spend less time being offended by the outrage du jour and spend more time bridging our differences.
It is true that the US bailed Europe out of two wars-three if you count the Cold War, and now are expected to undertake the lion’s share of any conflict because the Europeans have never rebuilt their armies. We also pumped a ton of cash into rebuilding the continent with the Marshall Plan.
The ‘coalition of the willing’ is about 5% coalition. Our guys are by and large still the vast majority of those getting their body parts shipped home in flag-draped boxes- while Euros hold their noses.
Europeans may be outraged, but it is true that we had to bail them out twice- three times if you count the Cold War. Also poured a ton of cash to rebuild the continent with the Marshall Plan. Even now our defense budget dwarfs any European country’s because they have never rebuilt their armies.
Just look at the “Coalition of the Willing”. It is 5% coalition- and many of those forces are pulling out at the end of the year. I don’t like Gitmo either, but its easy to hold your nose and let the US do all the dirty work.
Lantos is right and the Dutch have no gratitude for being relieved from the Nazi occupation. Indeed, about a year ago, the Financial Times had a long Weekend story about how the Dutch cooperated with the Nazi occupiers more than any occupied country during WWII except Austria, which had been annexed by Anschluss. According to the article, the Dutch turned over far more Jews, Ann Frank as a prime example, than the French or Belgians did per capita. The FT article contrasted the shameful Dutch behavior and cowardice with the bravery of the Danes, who had only a few dozen Jews captured by the Nazi occupiers—almost all by accident or sleuthing by the racist Nazi Gestapo. I think this may be what spurred Lantos to make what may be undiplomatic and even inappropriate, but also truthful and even salutory in the face of hypocritical poseurs prattling about Guantanamo while their ancestors sent their countrymen off to German extermination camps.
Guantanamo is a church picnic compared with European barbarities perpetuated in the last century, while narrow provincial small-time bourgeois in every surrounding country fed their Untermenschen to the German extermination machine.
The Europeans have amply demonstrated during the last one hundred years, from Sarajevo to Bosnia/Serbia, their inability to control their own security without outside intervention. Being lectured to by craven European MPs about how to treat terrorists captured on battlefields not wearing uniforms tends to make the guardians of western civilization a bit testy.
Karen
I am not trying to beat up on you but:
I tried to post this before and maybe I screwed up, but don’t forget Marquis de Lafayette and Baron Von Steuben and the French Fleet in the later 1790’s. Had it not been for the “Europeans” you might be speaking with a decidedly British accent.
We Americans should spend more time listening to than talking at our European Allies. After all it was the French that said to us “Don’t get involved in IndoChina (Vietnam specifically) because it is a snake pit.” We didn’t listen and look what happened! Oh yeah, they warned us about Iraq too, and we didn’t listen and look what has happened.
We read repeated posts about Europe urging America to stay in Iraq. There are never any accompnying offers of help, though, only criticisms. Closing down Gitmo involves issues much greater and more complicated than just closing the gates, and I don’t think these offended Dutch visitors were offering to take the detainees off aour hands, either.
Maybe Lantos didn’t choose his words as carefully as he should have, but I can understand why he lost his diplolomatic cool, for once - particularly,in light of his past as a Holocaust survivor,
I wonder what the reaction would be if a delegation of US senators went over to make observations about the mistakes made in controlling their riots.
This is almost enough to make me want to defend Pres. Bush! The war was a bad mistake and handling detainees involved badly mistaken decisions. We;re stuck with the consequence of past errors,though, and we’ll have to deal with them, apparently, alone. Those who are not helping really need to stop nagging!
You folks aware the Dutch have troops in Afghanistan?
Also are you aware the person that tweeked Lantos’ tail was a Green Party Member who are typical kinda left wingers?
Finally, (having worked for the Dutch myself) when they discuss things with you, there is usually very little political correctness, they are pretty upfront bunch of folks which is refreshing to me.
And hey look, just because Lantos is a Holocaust survivor, doesn’t make him a good statesman or politician.
The American theater commander in Afghanistan reports that the Dutch contingent of troops there is “punching above its weight class”. Unlike some other NATO allies, the Netherlands has been quite good at meeting its commitments to Afghanistan and not handcuffing its troops with deployment restrictions that make them essentially useless to the theater commander.
In short, your metaphor is inapt and a reversal of the truth.
Jason; thanks for pointing that out. Perhaps that commenter should read a post published shortly before this one; about the offensive the Dutch launched against the Taliban in Afghanistan.
In typical “annoy both sides” moderate fashion, I should also add that the comments above citing the lack of alternatives are legitimate. Europe loves to critique Gitmo and demand its closure, but Europe rarely if ever offers any realistic alternatives of what to do after it was closed. Putting al-Qaeda members into civilian trials is not possible because it is not possible to meet the exacting standards of evidence and chain-of-control in a case that originates on a battlefield or on the streets of Karachi. The real alternative, then, would be to simply release them to return to their comrades in triumph.
You really want that, Europe?
The Geneva Conventions accord POW status to any member of an armed force who fulfill all of the following conditions:
* they are “commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates” (in other words, subject to military discipline and a chain of command);
* wear a uniform “having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance” (there are exceptions to this for “citizen militia” who don’t have uniforms, but meet all the other criteria; there is also a more generous exception for guerrillas under the 1977 “Protocol I,” which the US has not ratified);
* are “carrying arms openly” (that is, not hiding among noncombatants);
* and are “conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.”
People who do not meet this definition are “unlawful combatants” (a term in use since the 1940s) and have no protections. They are war criminals. They are not entitled to the protections of domestic criminal law. They can, legitimately, under the Geneva Conventions, be summarily shot.
The terrorists in Guantanamo are not even pretending to be anything other than unlawful combatants — unless, in the twisted logic of the Dutch Left, flying hijacked airplanes into buildings and setting off car bombs in crowded markets is “conducting operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.”
The US isn’t shooting them. Propaganda to the contrary notwithstanding, we’re keeping them warm, safe, and dry, and feeding them so well that they’re gaining weight.
Mike, that was the point I inarticulately tried to make above among others. No uniform or name/rank/serial number, no rights to anything except a dungeon at Gitmo.
Since the Dutch are part of Nato, aren’t they required to supply troops for the alliance’s effort in Afghanistan? I believe Sec Gates was complaining Friday about the fact that most of the participants need to send more troops and equipment, since the efforts there appear to be flagging against the Taliban.
The legislators who were insulted by Lantos comments and are always outraged whatever the US does are members of the socialist (communist) and our hippy green parties. I find it guite enjoying the left is outraged by comments about WW2, normaly they bring in these terms, when you talk about immigration laws or Muslims. These parties are mostly supported by our non working class and the Muslims. These parties try to please our muslim poplulation so they bring in more votes in the next elections.
But on the other I find it quite anoying some of you Americans think you guys are the only ones fighting the war on terror. I know most european countries dont have the polical guts to fight in the south of Afghanistan, but there are some exeptions: The Danes, Estionians, Romanians, Poles, Dutch and of course the British also put up the fight against the Taliban/Alqaeda.
@ Kritter
http://mvdg.wordpress.com/2007/10/25/dutch-troops-in-afghanistan-start-offensive-spin-gahr/
Well said Bram. Kim - perhaps you should do some more reading about the Dutch mission. Also look at what Jason wrote.
We’d be able to ask film maker Theo van Gogh what he thinks of Guantanamo if he hadn’t been murdered in broad daylight on the streets of Amsterdam by an Islamic nut.
Perhaps the Dutch lawmakers so apalled by Gitmo would prefer that we handle the prisoners there like Dutch troops dealt with Muslim refugees in Srebrinica - step aside with a smile and let Serbs butcher them. That’s EU nuance for you. The Dutch were far more “effective” there than they are in Afghanistan. Yet another instance where the US had to intervene - in Europe - to keep Europeans from exterminating each other.
I would think Lantos is very much aware that followers of Dutch fascist Anton Mussert, as well as other Dutch volunteers, filled the ranks of the SS in WWII. And these Dutch officials have the supreme, preening gall to browbeat Lantos, of all people, about Gitmo while this Dutch blogger demands an abject apology for Lantos’ response?
The incessant smug lecturing, the screaming about “the mote in their brother’s eye” while ignoring the beam in their own, the total inability of EU media and politicians to engage in any foreign policy discussion that does not cast the US as a dumb, cartoonish monster - yes, this is why Americans increasingly detest Europeans.
I stand corrected for not having previously checked out the amount of Dutch troops in Afghanistan. Thank you for bringing that point up. I have not been able to find any English language source for the Green and Socialist response to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, so I am leaving it out. While previously I had thought that Dutch government protection for Ayaan Hirsi Ali had been withdrawn everywhere, I found out that this applied only to outside the Netherlands. So, at least she is still being protected in the Netherlands- and I have read that she has returned to the Netherlands. Nonetheless, I do not consider it a good sign that protection was withdrawn from the US. Here is my rephrasing of my second paragraph.
“While the Dutch have sent troops to Afghanistan, the Socialist Party of Harry van Bommel and the Green Party of Mariko Peters opposed this standing up to Islamofascism. Two politicians whose parties opposed standing up to Islamofascism in Afghanistan, and whose parties’ response to Islamofascism’s domestic threat to the Netherlands has been ineffectual, make themselves ludicrous when they lecture the United States on Guantánamo. ‘Riots and car-becues in Amsterdam, and the Taliban’s blowing up schoolteachers and Buddhist monuments ? No problem. We will sing Kumbaya in accompaniment.’ ”
(I make this statement knowing that Peters has been in Afghanistan.)
These fools deserved to be insulted. The response of Lantos and myself should be directed not at the Dutch as a whole, but at the Greens and Socialists. Only 22 of 150 legislators voted with the Greens and Socialists regarding sending additional troops to Afghanistan. While it might not be politic to insult them, as an American who is all too aware of what Europeans have been saying about the US, I am tired of turning the other cheek.
A suggestion on site design. While my HTML links came through (on “lies and misrepresentations” and “squalid and inhumane”) they are not visible because the font color did not change. Most blogs have different colored fonts on HTML links. Were you to add that, HTML links would be more visible.
It seems as though some folks want to paint the Dutch and “we” Americans with a broad, all inclusive brush.
NealCA
Don’t include me as one of the Americans that “increasingly detests Europeans.”
True about Anton Mussert, but we had a Nazi movement here in the U.S. too (and still do) doesn’t make even a majority of the Dutch nor majority of Americans of the same ilk.
Finally your accusation about the Dutch troops in Srebrenica is completely unwarranted. To give you an example of the confusion we all were surrounded by in that situation (I was a member of the U.S. military mission there) our Commanding General was an extremely capable Canadian officer in whom you could see an example of “the consumate soldier/statesman” yet on his return to Canada he retired became an alcoholic living in the streets because as he says, “Having to shake hands with known butchers.” All of us were under some very difficult rules of engagement, and to assume the Dutch command knew specifically of what was going on at the time is patently wrong. As an example of the kind of confusion you may understand, remember those U.S. soldiers that had to shoot children in Vietnam because they may have been living boobytraps, this is the kind of battlefield “fog” combined with the international politics that affected our ability to stop Serb actions effectively at places like Srebrenica.
Basically don’t beat up the Dutch, they are our friends, really!
#6 Ion said …
> When this war finally hits Europe, some will surrender immediately, …
When?! Spain was hit (the 3/11 bombings) and surrendered right off the bat.
The 3/11 bombings were a slap in the face compared to what might be expected in the future.
In fairness to Spain, it was the government of Spain that surrendered right off the bat. Their military was still willing to fight.
Top Democrat on Auschwitz, Guantanamo and Europe
Dutch lawmakers claim that Rep. Tom Lantos, D-Calif., chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, told them that "Europe was not as outraged by Auschwitz as by Guantanamo Bay."
Michael van der Galiën from the Netherlands takes issue w
Driving into Woodstock, NY with a Dutch friend who owns a house there, I suggested we stop at a breakfast place I like. “Too Jewish,” he responded. Dumbstruck by his response, I realized he didn’t know I was half Jewish (and half Dutch Christian). I remained quiet for a moment. My Dutch friend then began to debate the issues related to peace in the mideast and suggested that Israel has a lot to do with the inability of folks in that region to come to terms with each other. I suggested he answer a simple hypothetical query regarding peace in the mideast. 1. What happens if Israel lays down its arms and promises not to retaliate against any attack? Answer: Israel is destroyed later that afternoon. 2. What happens if the Arab countries surrounding Israel lay down their arms and promise not to retaliate against any attack? Answer: PEACE in the Middle East.